About Sepia toning: would you avoid mixing... ?

Hello,
I ordered Kodak sepia toners I and II, one little bag of each...
I'd like to start tests for a middle point tone... Not too yellow, not too warm, on Fomatone paper only...
Is there any chemical reason to avoid mixing them and try to make them work together?
I've read many posts by Mr. Carnie and Mr. Gainer about sepia toning... I'm aware of the bleaching time change for the second version...
In my case I won't do it for a controlled or personal taste tone, but for the total archival possibility, so I'll just have to accept final tone...
Has someone mixed both products?
Apart from testing bleaching times, etc., can this be a terrible idea chemically speaking?
Thanks.

As both of those toners are no longer manufactured, I am curious what the purpose of your experiment (mixing) is?

Toners are usually designed to be used with Bromide papers which are Neutral tone. If you are after permanence rather than a colour shift then don't use a re-halogenating Bleach just place the prints in in a Sodium Sulphide toner solution, do it outdoors

I posted some tests here a couple of years ago.

Ian

MattKing said:

As both of those toners are no longer manufactured, I am curious what the purpose of your experiment (mixing) is?

Click to expand...

They've been manufactured for many years by another brand, just like Microdol-X.

Ian Grant said:

Toners are usually designed to be used with Bromide papers which are Neutral tone. If you are after permanence rather than a colour shift then don't use a re-halogenating Bleach just place the prints in in a Sodium Sulphide toner solution, do it outdoors

I posted some tests here a couple of years ago.

Ian

Click to expand...

Hello Ian,
I am indeed after the tone sepia gives... That's why I picked it instead of other toners... I've used selenium and gold too, as split toning...
Many years ago I used sepia with different types of fiber paper before I knew the effects were so different! I remember l got, unexpectedly, a very special warm tone I couldn't get with my next purchase while I was a student... Back then, 20 years ago, I found, WMG Ilford paper and its MG warmtone developer gave me a much neutral tone: the tone I loved, just before that, was with Bergger Prestige and NeutolWA... Then I learned about chloride papers and their warm tone possibilities, apart from warm tone developers... Some years ago I started using PrintWA because of that...
In general I like the tonal range sepia gives... By the way, I've seen your examples.
And Ian, I didn't say I wasn't after the tonal change sepia gives to my materials: all I said was which paper I use, and that I wasn't after partial tonal changes but the total change those materials produce when used for their highest archival use. In this case, now, I want to do it that way, and I explained I was going to accept final tone.
I'm also aware of how neutral and cold papers in, say, Dektol, can get some the sepia tone no matter if they weren't developed in warm tone developers... But as I use printWA paper developer, and fomatone paper, I explained my case...
Of course I'll be glad to receive any advice including all these facts, and apart from that, any answer related to my question.
Thank you!
..

Juan Valdenebro said:

They've been manufactured for many years by another brand, just like Microdol-X.

Click to expand...

What exact products are you using? As they aren't the actual Kodak products, the answer to your questions may be dependent on that.

If you're using a sulfide sepia, Fomatone will react very intensely with some toners - Moersch MT-2 at about 1+50 gives a very strong coppery sepia on Fomatone after a light bleach - it's much nicer used direct - you can persuade it to split-tone etc, or if you want to bleach, use a very, very dilute bleach (maybe 1+100 or more).

THINGS HAVE CHANGED ...
Well, unfortunately I won't be able to do things the way I planned...
I just received a call from the company that sends me my photographic materials from my locker service in Miami, and they explained there's one product they won't be able to send overseas again, the sepia toner... In the past the sent me the sepia toner II, but now I won't get the sepia toner I that I was planning to mix with the sepia toner II that's here... It's an ORM-D product... But they sent it in the past... The fact is I need to decide what to order for toning from now on: I need to go for a product that can be sent overseas, literally...
I've read several threads, but I'm not sure because there are so many sepia toners... I need some basic education on the subject... Thanks!
First, I went for Kodak Sepia Toners because sometime in the past I read sepia sulfide toners give stronger, longer archival protection than thiourea toners... Even if that's true, are thiourea sepia toners a good option too, thinking of prints' longevity? I don't want to tone a few prints: I want to find a sepia / brown tone for all my printing from now on, a standard... No prints without toning...
Now, a few things that won't change: I've been buying Fomatone warm fiber paper (131 & 132) in several sizes for three years, so that's the paper I plan to use as my definite paper, although I have some boxes of Ilford warmtone MG too, but not up to the big sizes... And I have several litres of PrintWA (NeutolWA) developer... I got them some time ago and I see they're now ORM-D too... So another question would be, as my papers are warm, and I will tone warm again, considering my warm developer won't be shipped again either, could it be a good idea to set my system to use, say, dektol instead of a warm developer? I don't care too much about the exact tone as long as it is decidedly warm, but I want the best archival protection from a product that will remain shippable overseas in the long term...
That's the whole case...
Thanks a lot!

Ian Grant who is here has been my go to guy on chemistry for the last 10 years or more, I mix from scratch my sepia toners and his counsel is solid and sound , I have not done a lot of toning these past
few years as I have completely moved to gum bichromate over palladium for my personal work..My input these days may be suspect due to my advancing age and lack of use of the materials.

I will say nothing beats a , slight sepia, gold then selenium combination on a Bromide paper.. the result can be spectacular .

Mr. Carnie, I'm so happy with your answer... I've read your posts for years, and you're a true master at printing in my opinion and in the opinion of many good photographers and printers worldwide... Thank you very much... I hope one day I'll be ready for trying such splendid split toning... And many times I've also read a few of your brief words on the music you listen to: same joy here... It's just amazing how here at Photrio one of the true greatest in a specific field can have the heart to come and help a beginner with basic questions... That's the spirit!
You can bet: you're younger than most of us! God bless you!

Yes, Ian Grant has helped me kindly a couple of times in previous years through personal messages, and early on this thread he said bromide (I guess not chloride) papers are the most used for toning...
I felt and feel his explanation here was too short for me to understand... I have to investigate a lot more.

Viradon. Direct toning. Gorgeous.

you can do over 1000 sheets with a single bottle of 125ml.

NB23 said:

Viradon. Direct toning. Gorgeous.

you can do over 1000 sheets with a single bottle of 125ml.

Click to expand...

Thanks, NB23... I'll look for info on Viradon's a) archival properties b) tone on both chloride and bromide papers c) results after warm and neutral developers and d) shipping restrictions.

By the way, I just checked the notes I've taken while reading, and twice I wrote the same recommendation by Brian Steinberger, for scratch mixing a sepia toner, but I have no more information written... Potassium ferricyanide and bromide, thiocarbamide and sodium hydroxide, plus hypo clear after washing, then the real final washing... No idea about its tone or type of sepia toner, nor about which raw chemicals are away from air flights shipping restrictions... Anybody using that on Foma warm fiber paper?

OMG... All sepia toners available from freestyle, by all brands, and brown toners too, are ORM-D and they just can't be sent here ! They can't fly over the ocean!
I would imagine if that's the present day situation, the same raw chemicals must be covered by the same restrictions... Anybody knows?
What could I do for archival lasting prints with a warm tone?
I'm shocked!

Ian Grant said:

Toners are usually designed to be used with Bromide papers which are Neutral tone. If you are after permanence rather than a colour shift then don't use a re-halogenating Bleach just place the prints in in a Sodium Sulphide toner solution, do it outdoors

I posted some tests here a couple of years ago.

Ian

Click to expand...

Is Ian talking about a type of solution that's not a sepia toner but just a sodium sulphide solution? As he says, it's permanence I'm intersted in, more than tone...
How would this option work? Zero tonal change? What would the permanence change be? If I can print with my warm fiber paper, and then enhance permanence without tonal shift, I'm interested. I believe in content way above surface.
But... It seems warm developers can't be shipped here either... And... I picked warm foma paper because of its tone in warm developers: but it seems I will have to leave warm developers out of the equation...
I'm totally confused, and I understand few members can shine a light on this as most of you live in the USA or Europe, where photochemicals are produced, so you never care about air flight over the ocean shipping...

NB23 said:

Viradon. Direct toning. Gorgeous.

you can do over 1000 sheets with a single bottle of 125ml.

Click to expand...

Viradon is an ORM-D product too...

Thiocarbamide is thiourea, so I can't take Brian's advice either: Formulary can't send it here.

In a pinch, you could try making some hypo-alum toner. It's made from sodium thiosulfate and alum (regular food-grade potassium alum will do). It's a rather slow, direct toner that should be used outdoors or in a well-ventilated area.

Juan, you could order your supplies from Europe, Fotoimpex for example still lists the toners with "worlwide shipping available". I am using Foma two part sepia toner with the Foma papers. It is possible to change the image tone by adjusting the temperature of the toning bath (see Foma's instructions). I do like the results, but I am not a "toner aficionado" and have little to no experience with other products (apart from KRST), so take my verdict with a grain of salt.

Juan Valdenebro said:

Is Ian talking about a type of solution that's not a sepia toner but just a sodium sulphide solution? As he says, it's permanence I'm intersted in, more than tone...
How would this option work? Zero tonal change? What would the permanence change be? If I can print with my warm fiber paper, and then enhance permanence without tonal shift, I'm interested. I believe in content way above surface.
But... It seems warm developers can't be shipped here either... And... I picked warm foma paper because of its tone in warm developers: but it seems I will have to leave warm developers out of the equation...
I'm totally confused, and I understand few members can shine a light on this as most of you live in the USA or Europe, where photochemicals are produced, so you never care about air flight over the ocean shipping...

Click to expand...

You might read this thread from three years ago where I did some tsestsat the time. You can use a weak Sodium Sulpde toner to protct prints (with no bleac bath first).

When I was in Santiage & Valparaiso (Chile) a few years ago there were stores selling photochemistry that they were having mixed for them locally. My guess is some devlopers aren't shipped due to low or lack of demand. In Santiago the one store was near the University who ran photography courses and it was reasonably well stocked. I have similar problems when in Turkey there it's lack of demand but its not so expensive to have items shipped from Europe.

Ian

Juan Valdenebro said:

Mr. Carnie, I'm so happy with your answer... I've read your posts for years, and you're a true master at printing in my opinion and in the opinion of many good photographers and printers worldwide... Thank you very much... I hope one day I'll be ready for trying such splendid split toning... And many times I've also read a few of your brief words on the music you listen to: same joy here... It's just amazing how here at Photrio one of the true greatest in a specific field can have the heart to come and help a beginner with basic questions... That's the spirit!
You can bet: you're younger than most of us! God bless you!

Click to expand...

Hello Juan this post makes me blush but thank you very much for the kind words.

I encourage you to mix toners from scratch, as you can then manipulate your prints much better... I find that a clora bromide paper (Ilford Warmtone) really moves fast and you need to be careful, I find that a bromide paper (Ilford Classic) will be a bit slower in its respose and keep a really nice black. On my lambda we use Ilford Galerie Grade 4 with a extended red sensitivity to attract the lasers, this grade 4 bromide emulsion tones incredibly well with sepia.... a pinch of pt ferr, a pinch of potassium bromide... then a dilutution that you can handle, less water faster moving , more water less moving.... I prefer a fast bleach so that I can see the results on a test strip then I back to a time that I like.... You can go in and out of the bleach a couple of times if you wish to get the result you want .... then into the stinky stuff sodium sulphide which does its job immediately.... I go for a very light sepia at this point I do not want the print to go brown.... then if you have $$$$ a slight gold tone comes after the wash .... this will create sepia in highlights and a beautiful peach in the upper midtones... then wash and followed by a strong selenium tone to change the blacks slightly do not go overboard..... If you do all of this you retain four lovely tones in a so called monochrome print. Dr Tim Rudman has noted in his books that this combination is extremely good for permanence and I will not argue with him.

Regarding my PET PEEVE ... photographers or printers who think they have discovered something and in their puny way hold back information.... I really have a low opinion of these type of people... I have been on Photrio for over 16 years now and have learned so much and met some wonderful people....unfortunately a lot of the good ones were kind of run out of town so to speak , by some bad actors who btw eventually left themselves... which has left a vacumn here which I think will overcome if we all take the stance of sharing our stuff and not ridiculing someone for asking a question.... I have never been afraid of asking a question ,,, we all have our deer in the headlight moment .. what we don't need is some ass deciding to oneupmanship to feel better about themselves.
I see this place a haven for photographic knowledge , some day Sean will be able to pull all the information here into a book or a instrument where people can easily ask questions and get answers... My second PET PEEVE is the reoccuring problem flow marks in grey skys... Damit agitate in the first 20 seconds no matter how you process your film...