About original design pinhole camera

[Zernike Au]

Please allow me to share this post and if it is not appropriate, please remove it.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2460680600725270&id=232653833527969

Please support original design.

 

[AgX]

Whether you consider that "not cool" or not, that is how our business world is.
You could have gained some legal protection on certain markets, but seemingly you did not do.

I assure you there is even worse within our industry, involving much, much more money, enrichment and lies.

 

[Jim Jones]

The curved film double pinhole camera sounds much like one I improvised and used in the 1970s. Probably both you and Ondu produced much more polished products than my basic and functional model, but such refinements aren't patentable.

 

[removedacct1]

Well, I definitely WON'T be buying any of Ondu's products. James Guerin has worked hard to develop very original designs and pirating them is unacceptable, whether or not he has copyrighted/patented any of the design features. (Patents are $$$$$ and the odds of ever recouping your money on a "cottage industry" product is slim)

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I learned a long time ago, you can patent a unique wheelbarrow design or feature but you cannot patent "the wheelbarrow". The concept has been in common use too long.

So too multiple pinholes and curved film planes. I also learned that many new creations and concepts were patented in the 1800's.

 

[ciniframe]

Can’t see where there is any other way to build a curved image, drop and rise pinhole camera. Without even knowing that Au Premier existed about 10 years ago I built a curved image pinhole for 5X7 paper that had upper and mid pinholes. The design is so basic that I don’t know how anyone else building similar designs for production could be accused of “stealing”. That would be like Nikon accusing all later SLR makers of stealing their design because they all have a moving mirror, penta prism, and focal plane shutter, and a normal lens of 50mm focal length.

I’m with Jim Jones evaluation on this issue.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Frankly, I don't know how one could assume some patent rights to a camera obscura. No matter what the features are. With all due respect to effort required creating one, there is nothing that had never been spoken off in your design. Only when one box is a clear copy of another in every way, would you have some validity to such claims, and I don't want to take this into round-corners-of-iphone discussion.

I believe we ought to be balanced in what we do, how we do it, and what rights to any such creation we choose to claim later on. Pinhole camera in the end is what it is. Breaking into the market with intent to profit is a challenge hardly different from any other commercial endevour. If indeed you thought you had a patentable idea, then there was only one way to protect it, a costly proposition for getting insurance for a low volume production with zero future financial benefit.

if you feel you had something nobody had before you, then just make a point of it (and I think you went a bit beyond that point). Are you really so sure your ideas were actually copied? There is no chance nobody could have thought of the same thing, even long before you? Perhaps. But do give credit to the blokes some 10 centuries ago who figured it out sufficiently enough, further advancements made later in history, and we can all enjoy it now.

I do not believe there is anything unheard off in your design and this is the main point. All while I can still understand where you are coming from, but you are now on record accusing Ondu of infringement in no uncertain terms, and I am not so certain this is what you intended.

 

[Zernike Au]

***I have no idea if this post is removed as it disappear after I post it, so I post it again, if it is remove, I hope I can get a notice from the ADmin.***

Patent is always a term used by design thief and copy cats to defense when they are being accused of stealing other's design! It is not for design or product design!

I knew many people said that pinhole camera already exist for many years. Yes, it is true but can you find a brand or any individual who that can make a wooden one with the short focal length of 25mm that can accept any 120 roll film with a compact size of 5 1/4" (L) x 1 3/4" (D) x 3 1/4"(H) including all knobs and comes with an exposure scale and viewfinder before 1999? I've been doing the research for 20 years but still have no luck. By that time we don't have any FB, we use 56K modem for internet, the pinhole society is Pinhole Visions...

Or can you find a commercial curve plane pinhole camera with multiple pinholes before RSS? (now we know who made such camera for personal use before, so bad I have no chance to see this camera before...)

To respect the camera makers, please have more research on their history, how they develop/design their cameras, how many researches works they have done, how their idea is come out, how they choose the material which is suitable for different climate of different countries, their craftmanship (using CNC router is definitely not hand-made) and their reputations, Why supporters willing to pay several US hundred dollars for their cameras, or even more money for a custom-made one, definitely it is not JUST A BOX. They have to settle many problems from production to after service, that is quite different from just make a single one for personal use. Shameless design thief can get the benefit of their hardworking by just have a little bit modification!

Just for example: even you use the same idea of curve plane camera with two or 3 pinholes or even 4 pinholes, I can't see why we cannot have just one shutter to open and close the different pinholes vertically, that's easy. (Please don't copy my new idea!) This is the big different between new/unique design and a copy or a little bit modification!!!

I understand that the whole world need to improve, copy is a stage of grow up for some late comers who need to learn, but after learning should be showing their own works, not the copy works. Now is already 2020, Nikon or Canon no longer need to copy Leica M10 Monochrome! 20 years before we don't have affordable CAD CAM, Software, don't have CNC router, don't have 3D printer, don't tons of information and youtube. Entering a university to study product/industrial design is not as difficult as before! Still need to copy or steal other's design? Really a shame that they don't use the brain to design but use it to fool the public for money!!!

Actually making one's own pinhole camera is the best way to explore the pinhole world. The material you choose for the camera, the focal length you prefer, the film format you love, especially the pinhole you make.... all make your final images unique and different from the others. For those who choose to buy a commercial one, they pay for the hardworking, pay for the unique design, the craftmanship, the after service, and their contribution to the pinhole world...otherwise, it worth nothing!!!

Thank you for your reading, enjoy pinhole photography and please support original design.

Disclaimer: This response is purely for the discussion of patent, design rights, design process, copy method, design thief and pinhole cameras, no intention to specify or aim to anyone or any company/brand. If it is not appropriate, feel free to remove my post.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

***I have no idea if this post is removed as it disappear after I post it, so I post it again, if it is remove, I hope I can get a notice from the ADmin.***

Patent is always a term used by design thief and copy cats to defense when they are being accused of stealing other's design! It is not for design or product design!

I knew many people said that pinhole camera already exist for many years. Yes, it is true but can you find a brand or any individual who that can make a wooden one with the short focal length of 25mm that can accept any 120 roll film with a compact size of 5 1/4" (L) x 1 3/4" (D) x 3 1/4"(H) including all knobs and comes with an exposure scale and viewfinder before 1999? I've been doing the research for 20 years but still have no luck. By that time we don't have any FB, we use 56K modem for internet, the pinhole society is Pinhole Visions...

Or can you find a commercial curve plane pinhole camera with multiple pinholes before RSS? (now we know who made such camera for personal use before, so bad I have no chance to see this camera before...)

To respect the camera makers, please have more research on their history, how they develop/design their cameras, how many researches works they have done, how their idea is come out, how they choose the material which is suitable for different climate of different countries, their craftmanship (using CNC router is definitely not hand-made) and their reputations, Why supporters willing to pay several US hundred dollars for their cameras, or even more money for a custom-made one, definitely it is not JUST A BOX. They have to settle many problems from production to after service, that is quite different from just make a single one for personal use. Shameless design thief can get the benefit of their hardworking by just have a little bit modification!

Just for example: even you use the same idea of curve plane camera with two or 3 pinholes or even 4 pinholes, I can't see why we cannot have just one shutter to open and close the different pinholes vertically, that's easy. (Please don't copy my new idea!) This is the big different between new/unique design and a copy or a little bit modification!!!

I understand that the whole world need to improve, copy is a stage of grow up for some late comers who need to learn, but after learning should be showing their own works, not the copy works. Now is already 2020, Nikon or Canon no longer need to copy Leica M10 Monochrome! 20 years before we don't have affordable CAD CAM, Software, don't have CNC router, don't have 3D printer, don't tons of information and youtube. Entering a university to study product/industrial design is not as difficult as before! Still need to copy or steal other's design? Really a shame that they don't use the brain to design but use it to fool the public for money!!!

Actually making one's own pinhole camera is the best way to explore the pinhole world. The material you choose for the camera, the focal length you prefer, the film format you love, especially the pinhole you make.... all make your final images unique and different from the others. For those who choose to buy a commercial one, they pay for the hardworking, pay for the unique design, the craftmanship, the after service, and their contribution to the pinhole world...otherwise, it worth nothing!!!

Thank you for your reading, enjoy pinhole photography and please support original design.

Disclaimer: This response is purely for the discussion of patent, design rights, design process, copy method, design thief and pinhole cameras, no intention to specify or aim to anyone or any company/brand. If it is not appropriate, feel free to remove my post.

I'm puzzled. What is so unique about majority of what you said here? How about nothing? Curved plane camera, lots of them. Why would it matter commercial or not (?), point being NOT your idea. Multi-hole camera? Lots of them, again makes no difference commercial or not, not your idea.

 

[MattiS]

While I write this one of your RSS 4x5" is smiling fom the shelf to me. So I am one of your happy customers.

Yes, multiple pinhole was innovative when I purchased my RSS, and, yes, this feature got more common over the last years.

I don´t want to/can´t judge the resulting legal aspects described in your initial posting, but the last posts might show you that other people see things in a different, if not opposite way. You might very well be frustrated (and yes, I can understand that perfectly), but it might have been wiser to discuss that with friends in a pub one evening (instead of a public discussion) and after that concentrate to what I happily read in your facebook comment:

"I will continue to bring new & fresh designs to the pinhole market. I have something very special coming soon!"

In my opinion, this is the only and right way to proceed. Your business is well known and it has a positive reputation. Use that, add value for customers to your existing and future products. Maybe you...

... add options to your products. I´d like to have an potion to use a rollfilm back on my RSS - it´s just some longer threads. Or different wood finish. Different grades of pinhole qualities.

... think about 135 pinhole cameras. When I purchased my RSS we talked about 135 pinhole. After I CLAed my FT-2 I am no longer sure if a 135 pinhole camera would be so much more complicated. And 135 is much more common.

... make a semi-zoom pinhole camera. Shutters with pinhole selection are available.

... disconnect body and pinhole. Makes different focal lengths possible. A pinhole system camera.

... check your distribution ways. I know ist was no problem to order one of your cameras but it was no one-click-ebay-like soluton either. Don´t know how it is organized today.

... add other branches to your business like wood tripods. My guess is that pinhole cameras itself is a very small business.

Fingerpointing won´t help you. There are always positive options! Check them! Be ahead!

 

[Jim Jones]

MattiS -- Several of your interesting suggestions have been around for a long time. Many press cameras provide a zoom body, wire frame viewfinder, and roll film adapters. In the 1970s I was using a 2000mm pinhole adaptor for 35mm cameras. although larger format pinhole camera images provide more detail. Probably all of these ideas were independently invented long before then.

 

[Zernike Au]

While I write this one of your RSS 4x5" is smiling fom the shelf to me. So I am one of your happy customers.


Fingerpointing won´t help you. There are always positive options! Check them! Be ahead!

Thank you for your support of original design! Being positive is always good, but we still need to protect our design and stop any design thief activities, don't encourage them to become more and more aggressive. If we don't shout lourd when we found a thief, more thieves will be here and there!

I have already make the similar camera system you mentioned in teak wood many years ago but I never think of launch all my designs to the market. I love to design and making cameras, photography related tools like contact printer, dry/wet plate racks, glass plate drier, glass plate holder, filter case holder in wood, 45 sheet film holder for processing, just to name a few...(all my friends know about it and some already get their special gifts) ... and it is not my intention to launch new design/items every one or two years to increase the sales or enlarge the business, we are not Iphone, or Nikon or Canon.

To launch a camera with new unique design is really not easy but coping/modify any existing commercial pinhole camera or individual own-made camera is really so simple!!!
Again, please support original design or simply make your own pinhole camera by yourself, it is really not difficult now.

I have no idea if James of RSS will visit this forum, but I am sure he will appreciate your inputs.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Thank you for your support of original design! Being positive is always good, but we still need to protect our design and stop any design thief activities, don't encourage them to become more and more aggressive. If we don't shout lourd when we found a thief, more thieves will be here and there!

I have already make the similar camera system you mentioned in teak wood many years ago but I never think of launch all my designs to the market. I love to design and making cameras, photography related tools like contact printer, dry/wet plate racks, glass plate drier, glass plate holder, filter case holder in wood, 45 sheet film holder for processing, just to name a few...(all my friends know about it and some already get their special gifts) ... and it is not my intention to launch new design/items every one or two years to increase the sales or enlarge the business, we are not Iphone, or Nikon or Canon.

To launch a camera with new unique design is really not easy but coping/modify any existing commercial pinhole camera or individual own-made camera is really so simple!!!
Again, please support original design or simply make your own pinhole camera by yourself, it is really not difficult now.

I have no idea if James of RSS will visit this forum, but I am sure he will appreciate your inputs.

I'm sorry to point this out to you, but you are clearly suggesting that majority of commercial pinholes have no right to be there because somehow you were the first. Not how it works (given the working principle behind the whole pinhole idea discussed in depth in past several decades, and while I am not familiar in any way or fashion with any of your cameras, by reading this, I will not consider them either. In other words, you have lost a potential customer. You have no right to claim anything you have already stated and I really think you have overdone it to a point of potential no return with your insistence what others ought to do (buy either your design or make own). While I make my own, I would rather buy anything but yours now, decision I made having read your posts here.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

The thing to keep in mind, when you think others have stolen your idea; they are just as angry that you have stolen theirs.

That is part of the reason patents are so hard to defend. Also, in some cases, if a product has been on the market, unchallenged for patent rights, for some period of time; it may be thought of as part of the public domain.

 

[MattiS]

Thank you for your support of original design!

To be honest, it was no decision for "original design. At that time it was the only brand that offered multi-pinhole cameras commercially. I like the camera I purchased, it made your brand likeable and when purchasing another camera I will consider RSS. But with todays choice of manufacturers at that time it might have decided for another camera. And how could I decide which design is "original" and which one ist not?

If you read the posts here, you might see that you get in trouble if you argue with "original design". There is always someone who built that before in his cellar workshop. I think one can accept that your firm made ideas commercially available first. No matte if they are new or old, as long as they are not protected in any way.

In my opinion new, innovative products with extra value will save a business, not claiming "original ideas" on a weak basis.

 

[AgX]

Patent is always a term used by design thief and copy cats to defense when they are being accused of stealing other's design! It is not for design or product design!

As I already hinted at above, in some legislations there is protection of lesser innovation than needed with a patent. In some cases it may only cover esthetic aspects. Depending on legislations these protections are handled by patent offices too.

And as I hinted at too, you mix up ethical with legal matters.



By the way, "Design" is a ambigous word. In English it covers functional creativity too, whereas in some languages it only covers creations concerning esthetics or handling, not basic functionality.

 

[Zernike Au]

[QUOTE="Grandpa Ron,.....[/QUOTE]

There is no need to angry when you found someone steal your/other's design/money, simply shout loudly, let everyone one known a thief is there and all will pay attention to their money pocket and then try our best to catch the thief (in a safe situation).

You are quite right that the thief will be very angry because they have to stop at once and run away. Then they cannot continue to steal other's money in the same location any more because everyone aware of it. Whether he will be put into jail or got penalty is another issue.

I once saw a thief steal money from two persons by the same time. It seems his previous successes in stealing money encourage him to do it again and again brazenly and this time he was caught by the two victims.

Patent is not universal! It last for only 20 years, design rights needed to be renew every 5 years. This really make the real professional designer, creator, or company headache.

Too much design thieves out there! Even patented, the design thief (sometimes we call it design mice) still have their method to copy! But it is not difficult to judge the product is a copy or not and of course the design mice always have their methods to deny/defense.

A very good example is the famous German Sawmer brothers https://thehustle.co/rocket-internet-oliver-samwer!!!

Another example of how shameless copy cat use patent to share other's hard working results for money is the very hot news recently:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...patent-gilead-s-experimental-coronavirus-drug.

I saw similar case success in China before and we have advise RSS to add back the information which can proof that they are the original design owner of their muti-pinhole for shift function cameras (not the original idea of multi pinholes!!!).

For those who even don't have idea what is an original design/idea, or don't know who is the original design, no problem. There is no need for you to support anything that you don't familiar. Just choose the camera that meet your need and enjoy. We all professional product designers, commercial camera makers(including those who love to copy other's) and serious pinholers know what's happened otherwise the two camera makers will not sound together. Again, thanks for those who support original design.