Aaarg... Lith mithadventures

Mike Té · Apr 17, 2007

So, at first forgot to dilute the A+B mix. After a 4 1/2 mi. exposure, slid the print into the tray turned it, snatched it... too late! A total of 5 seconds in the developer.

Then, appropriately diluted, I kept getting ripples of uneven development for each of 4 successive 11 X 14 prints; garbage all. Worked fine the other day!

Since those were my last 11 X 14 sheets, I went with another negative, first go with lith for this one. Doing OK, but man, is it taking a long time; 40 minutes each! I realize that I'm into the third hour of the A+B mix... the developer's petering out on me. This is the second round of mix and I've been leaning over these trays for 5 hours now with no real keeper yet.

Time for a cold beer. Tomorrow's another day.

blaze-on · Apr 17, 2007

I started doing lith a couple months ago..I've read Tim's books twice or more...
I still have hard time pulling each at the same time.

The other night, took three from a session, selenium toned, then gold toned to get a nice overall blue for this image.

Put them in the washer for a few hours and they turned yellow.
I hoped they might revert back to blue when dry, but nah...

It's like golf...frustrating but one good shot will make you keep at it..

Keep at it...

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 17, 2007

I've just started printing with lith and I've noticed what you're describing. It's definitely not for those that are in a hurry... The first time I developed Ilford MGIV Warm Tone paper in lith, the prints took 25 minutes with fresh developer. Wouldn't you say, however, that it's real magic when the print starts appearing!

I have started the habit of making very detailed notes of my prints. Paper, exact dilution, temperature, exposure time, crop, enlarger column height, etc. It seems to be the only way I can get any sort of consistency with lith chemistry. But perhaps consistency is boring after all... ?

I've gotten into the habit of keeping a bottle of single malt around, just in case I get bored or want an excuse for being cross-eyed while staring at the print. Currently Strathisla single malt is doing the honors, a very appropriate darkroom filter.

- Thomas

Travis Nunn · Apr 17, 2007

40 minutes is certainly a long time. What dilution are you using? My last lith printing session was two days ago over the course of about 4-6 hours and about 10 11x14 prints. Even on the last one it only took about 8 minutes to get to the snatch point.

Another thing that helped my lith printing tremendously is one these...

http://www.rhdesigns.co.uk/darkroom/html/safetorch.html

Mike Té · Apr 17, 2007

Travis, for the first time today, I was using Kodalith Super RT, diluted 1+1+16.

I still have my RHDesigns light around my neck as I write... still sipping my beer.

Travis Nunn · Apr 17, 2007

Ah. I've never used Kodalith so I'm afraid I won't be of much help...

Hope the beer is good. ;-)

Mike Té · Apr 17, 2007

Just turned on the lights. As with Kodalith Fineline and now Super RT, I get a warmer result with Ilford warmtone than I do with Forte warmtone. The Forte is quite black, actually.

Dan Williams · Apr 18, 2007

t_nunn said:
Another thing that helped my lith printing tremendously is one these...

http://www.rhdesigns.co.uk/darkroom/html/safetorch.html

I bought one of these from Tim Rudman when I took his lith workshop a few years ago. It is a great little item that I always wear in the darkroom. I have a piece of masking tape over the LEDs on mine. Tim did that and said he thought the light was a bit bright for close repeated inspections of lith prints. I have never tested it for fogging - I have just left the tape on it.

rhdesigns builds some great tools. I have had their Zonemaster for years and bought the StopClock Professional after seeing Tim use his.

I tried Kodalith RT but didn't care for the greenish tones I would get. Now I usually use Naccolith and lately LP Superlith. I like the black color and gritty look Superlith gives me at lower dilutions.

Dan

Lowell Huff · Apr 18, 2007

People interested in doing LITH PROCESSING with a minimum of frustration should contact Freestyle for direction. They are running seminars at the local colleges and have the program "together".

Travis Nunn · Apr 18, 2007

I got my safetorch from Tim also at the APUG Conference last year. I never did put any tape on mine and I've not noticed any fogging from it.

I have some Naccolith, but I like the Maco Superlith better. It seems (for me anyway) that all my lith prints came out brown when I used the Naccolith. That's not to say that brown was bad, it just wasn't what I was looking for. Although now that I think about it, I do have some negatives I recently took that might benefit from that look.

Mark Layne · Apr 18, 2007

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I've just started printing with lith and I've noticed what you're describing. It's definitely not for those that are in a hurry... The first time I developed Ilford MGIV Warm Tone paper in lith, the prints took 25 minutes with fresh developer. Wouldn't you say, however, that it's real magic when the print starts appearing!

I have started the habit of making very detailed notes of my prints. Paper, exact dilution, temperature, exposure time, crop, enlarger column height, etc. It seems to be the only way I can get any sort of consistency with lith chemistry. But perhaps consistency is boring after all... ?

I've gotten into the habit of keeping a bottle of single malt around, just in case I get bored or want an excuse for being cross-eyed while staring at the print. Currently Strathisla single malt is doing the honors, a very appropriate darkroom filter.

- Thomas

One of the little problems is that if the notes are made after a few prints have gone through the developer, next day you mix a new batch and the first print disappoints, particular if you are aiming for colour with high dilutions.

As for single malt might I recommend Glen Breton. Of course Cockspur VSOR rum is better yet.
Mark

Travis Nunn · Apr 18, 2007

Mark Layne said:
One of the little problems is that if the notes are made after a few prints have gone through the developer, next day you mix a new batch and the first print disappoints, particular if you are aiming for colour with high dilutions.
Mark

One of the ways I deal with this is to make a note of how much total developer was used (not just the dilution), what percentage of Old Brown was used and what number the print was in a session. Not perfect, but it helps.

Dan Williams · Apr 18, 2007

t_nunn said:
I got my safetorch from Tim also at the APUG Conference last year. I never did put any tape on mine and I've not noticed any fogging from it.

I have some Naccolith, but I like the Maco Superlith better. It seems (for me anyway) that all my lith prints came out brown when I used the Naccolith. That's not to say that brown was bad, it just wasn't what I was looking for. Although now that I think about it, I do have some negatives I recently took that might benefit from that look.

Good to know about the light. I think I'll take the tape off mine and see how it does.

I dilute the heck out of Naccolith and, on J&C Poly warmtone (I still have a couple of boxes of it) I get what I would describe as peach colors. Unfortunately I don't remember my dilution and I am not home to get my notes. My developing time is normally around 12 minutes but, as with all things lith, your milage will vary.

What is your paper and dilution? I haven't achieved brown tones yet.

Dan

Travis Nunn · Apr 18, 2007

When I was experimenting with Naccolith, I diluted it 1:19 and I was using Kentmere Art Classic and Forte Fortezo GR-3. Both papers have since been discontinued as I'm sure you already know but I still have 4 boxes of Fortezo and 1 box of Art Classic left. I'll do some experimenting this weekend to see what happens.

Bob Carnie · Apr 19, 2007

My normal exposing time is 20 seconds , with the apeture closed down two stops.
Normal development time is 3-4 min with novalith a b 1:8
my first thought is why a 4 1/2 min exposure?

tmike said:
So, at first forgot to dilute the A+B mix. After a 4 1/2 mi. exposure, slid the print into the tray turned it, snatched it... too late! A total of 5 seconds in the developer.

Then, appropriately diluted, I kept getting ripples of uneven development for each of 4 successive 11 X 14 prints; garbage all. Worked fine the other day!

Since those were my last 11 X 14 sheets, I went with another negative, first go with lith for this one. Doing OK, but man, is it taking a long time; 40 minutes each! I realize that I'm into the third hour of the A+B mix... the developer's petering out on me. This is the second round of mix and I've been leaning over these trays for 5 hours now with no real keeper yet.

Time for a cold beer. Tomorrow's another day.

Mike Té · Apr 19, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
My normal exposing time is 20 seconds , with the apeture closed down two stops.
Normal development time is 3-4 min with novalith a b 1:8
my first thought is why a 4 1/2 min exposure?

Hi, Bob.

Well, I hope I'm on the right track...

My exposure was 4 1/2 min for that particular negative only b/c the original exposure (at f8, gr. 3) was 35 seconds. 4 1/2 minutes represented 3 stops over-exposure. Normally I do 2 stops. I tried 3 stops over with the Forte paper b/c the lighter tones were just not developing by the time the shadows were blocking. It did turn out better, but not nearly as good as the Ilford WT at 2 stops over.

Yesterday I worked on another negative that normally requires 5s under the enlarger; for lith, I exposed it 20s. Turned out nice.

Cheers.

richard ide · Apr 19, 2007

Sugarcane Brandy no dilution.
Lagavulin 10:1

Bob Carnie · Apr 19, 2007

If the print emerges that fast , you are really pounding too much exposure on the paper.
I do not always follow the adage of 2 - 3 stops more exposure for lith printing.
I do not use Tim Rudmans dilutions or times , I prefer the look from a higher dev dilution and the convienience of shorter dev times.* this look is somewhat like Anton Corjbin Star Trax book.
If you are using Ilford Warmtone. A method that I have found works for me is to snatch the prints in the Dev much sooner than you would for any other paper. *as soon as the black starts developing out with some intensity but before you would think to snatch, put it in the fix and it totally explodes in contrast and voila , you have a very nice lith print.
With lith printing there are no hard and fast rules.
As well as second enlarging station to flash the paper is the best tool to control contrast rather than changing your dilutions.
I have seen Tims print here when he taught a workshop here . I really love his work , but the long dev times that some experience can be frustrating and maybe move someone off this method of printing.
I do not have the patience for 20 min tests and therefore do not experience the full benifit of his methods.
Also for consistency of day to day, I use old dev but as well before any printing session I fog 5-10 sheets of paper to white light and place them in the developer before I start printing negs. Kind of like aging the dev, or like adding garlic and oil to the pan before the steaks go on.

tmike said:
Hi, Bob.

Well, I hope I'm on the right track...

My exposure was 4 1/2 min for that particular negative only b/c the original exposure (at f8, gr. 3) was 35 seconds. 4 1/2 minutes represented 3 stops over-exposure. Normally I do 2 stops. I tried 3 stops over with the Forte paper b/c the lighter tones were just not developing by the time the shadows were blocking. It did turn out better, but not nearly as good as the Ilford WT at 2 stops over.

Yesterday I worked on another negative that normally requires 5s under the enlarger; for lith, I exposed it 20s. Turned out nice.

Cheers.

Mike Té · Apr 19, 2007

Thanks for your comments, Bob; lots of food for thought.

That time the image popped out in about 5 seconds was because I'd forgotten to dilute the developer at all. Full strength! I'm in full "hard-way" mode, you see...

I just spent a good day in the darkroom. One image was exposed at 2 times the base exposure (of a print developed in normal multigrade developer), which didn't work out, so I went to 3 stops over. Since my dilution was 1+1+1(old brown)+32, these took a long time to develop, 26 and 36 min. respectively.

You'll see that the highlights don't come in on time on the lesser-exposed image; the infectious development begins and the highlights remain completely blown out. At 3 stops over, the highlights are there as the blacks threaten and the image is complete.

Here they are:

Mike Té · Apr 19, 2007

Another example

The first image here was exposed 1 stop over and the last 2 were exposed 3 stops over. Of the last 2, one was snatched a smidge late (I found myself being mesmerized by the infectious development and watching it fill in the details of the doors) and the second was snatched a smidge early. I can't decide which of the last 2 that I prefer....

Mike Té · Apr 19, 2007

richard ide said:
Sugarcane Brandy no dilution.
Lagavulin 10:1

Now you're talking technique!

Thanks for the advice.

Bob Carnie · Apr 20, 2007

Mike
Looks to me you have a handle on the process
I would try a 1:8 session just to speed up the dev process and with a second flash*could be a bare bulb on timer* you can control the contrast.
At 1:8 with Nova lith I get full black emergence around 3 min , never over 5 min.

tmike said:
The first image here was exposed 1 stop over and the last 2 were exposed 3 stops over. Of the last 2, one was snatched a smidge late (I found myself being mesmerized by the infectious development and watching it fill in the details of the doors) and the second was snatched a smidge early. I can't decide which of the last 2 that I prefer....

Mike Té · Apr 20, 2007

Thanks, Bob.

Bob Carnie said:
Mike
Looks to me you have a handle on the process
I would try a 1:8 session just to speed up the dev process and with a second flash*could be a bare bulb on timer* you can control the contrast.
At 1:8 with Nova lith I get full black emergence around 3 min , never over 5 min.

I think your advice here is spot on, Bob. I've yet to try any flashing, so that will be on the agenda for my next session.

As for now, I've packed away the trays; I have about 20 rolls to develop...

Thanks!

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 20, 2007

Oban is a pretty good filter too...

tmike said:
Now you're talking technique!

Thanks for the advice.

Aaarg... Lith mithadventures

Mike Té

blaze-on

Thomas Bertilsson

Travis Nunn

Mike Té

Travis Nunn

Mike Té

Dan Williams

Lowell Huff

Travis Nunn

Mark Layne

Travis Nunn

Dan Williams

Travis Nunn

Bob Carnie

Mike Té

richard ide

Bob Carnie

Mike Té

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Bob Carnie

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Thomas Bertilsson

Aaarg... Lith mithadventures

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