A zone system question

nickandre · Apr 15, 2009

So I know there's this whole big deal called the zone system. I understand that it reflects the different stops of light that can be effectively printed. I understand how to meter for it, but say I do not have the time to determine effective speeds and what my N+1 and -1 times are for a certain film. What should I do? Should I just guess at the times of development? Or should I just skip that part and take for granted Variable Contrast fiber paper?

Anscojohn · Apr 15, 2009

tiberiustibz said:
So I know there's this whole big deal called the zone system. I understand that it reflects the different stops of light that can be effectively printed. I understand how to meter for it, but say I do not have the time to determine effective speeds and what my N+1 and -1 times are for a certain film. What should I do? Should I just guess at the times of development? Or should I just skip that part and take for granted Variable Contrast fiber paper?

*****
Drop Exposure Index to one half box speed; take a reading off the palm of your hand in the same light as your subject and expose by one additional f/stop. Soup film gently in a soft-working developer which will support your low and mid tones without blowing out the highlights. I use D-23; others prefer Rodinal 1:75 or 1:85 or thereabouts. Use a diffusion enlarger light source. Print negs for min time for max black through the clear film OFF THAT ROLL OF FILM. Make adjustments through paper or filtration changes, developer changes, to make the print say what you saw or felt. Have fun; win accolades, awards, and great financial remuneration.

L Gebhardt · Apr 16, 2009

My take is if you don't want to do the testing you will be fine most of the time with just relying on VC paper. You won't get the exact same results, but they will still be good. You should take the time to test your film speed at normal development times however for your equipment. Or at least drop to half box speed if you aren't going to test. Then if most negatives print on grade 3 try increasing development time 10%. Or if you frequently get grade 1 negatives then cut back 10% on the dev time. Then you will be centered on grade two and have the most room to let VC paper do its magic when things aren't normal.

Using roll film this is how I work and I have no problems. I have had a few frames that needed grade 4.5, so it's close sometimes to not working.

2F/2F · Apr 16, 2009

tiberiustibz said:
So I know there's this whole big deal called the zone system. I understand that it reflects the different stops of light that can be effectively printed. I understand how to meter for it, but say I do not have the time to determine effective speeds and what my N+1 and -1 times are for a certain film. What should I do? Should I just guess at the times of development? Or should I just skip that part and take for granted Variable Contrast fiber paper?

Why do you personally want to use the zone system? Ask yourself that before you go any further with the idea of using it. Most people never do this, and dive in and embrace the zone system without ever reasoning out why they are doing so. Right now it sounds like you want to use it just because it is there, and not because it is actually a good choice for your "situation".

I highly doubt that not having the time will really be an issue for one who has done some thorough research, thinking, and soul searching, and after all that decided that the zone system is worth pursuing for his/her purposes. If you have decided that this system will work for you, you are not the type of person who places a lot of importance on time invested. (That being said, the whole purpose of the one system is to REDUCE the amount of time and effort spent trying to get that print just how you like it. Once you have done the initial testing, IMO it actually makes things quicker.)

The zone system is simply one tool; a more detailed approach to doing what photographers have done since day one: manipulating their images via exposure and development. You can do the same basic thing without following the zone system Bibles. The results will not be as precise, but if you have an artistic vision, and can calibrate your technique to it, you are doing just as well as a zonie, IMO.

If you don't want to go through the detailed testing of the zone system, but want to start experimenting with tweaking things via exposure and development, I suggest getting an incident light meter, and putting in lots and lots and lots and lots of shooting time. With an incident meter, a good eye for luminance range in a composition, and VC paper, you can do quite well for yourself without ever having to do the by-the-book zone thingies.

Marc Leest · Apr 16, 2009

2F/2F said:
Why do you personally want to use the zone system? Ask yourself that before you go any further with the idea of using it.

Correct. Whether you use the Zone system or the Tone system or BTZS or variations, the main issue is what is not in the negative, you cannot print. VC papers won't help either.
Expose for the shadows, develop for the hightlight or practically when in doubt overexpose and underdevelop.

Rick A · Apr 16, 2009

The only thing I came away from the zone system with is to expose for the shadows, and develope for the highlights. This philosophy has served me well for many years.

nickandre · Apr 16, 2009

I will be shooting the 4x5 this weekend and would like to be able to achieve the tonality I get using a 2 grade paper or thereabouts. I don't like going up in grades of paper or filtration.

Photo Engineer · Apr 16, 2009

The zones in the zone system are merely seven of the 21 steps in a normal step wedge. The zone system is designed to help you place your exposure in the middle of the entire 21 steps without being on the curved part of the toe or shoulder, or if you must be there, it assists you in rethinking development conditions to reduce any problems.

PE

ronlamarsh · Apr 16, 2009

Anscojohn said:
*****
Drop Exposure Index to one half box speed; take a reading off the palm of your hand in the same light as your subject and expose by one additional f/stop. Soup film gently in a soft-working developer which will support your low and mid tones without blowing out the highlights. I use D-23; others prefer Rodinal 1:75 or 1:85 or thereabouts. Use a diffusion enlarger light source. Print negs for min time for max black through the clear film OFF THAT ROLL OF FILM. Make adjustments through paper or filtration changes, developer changes, to make the print say what you saw or felt. Have fun; win accolades, awards, and great financial remuneration.

John,

I always thought that "palm of the hand" reading was approximately zone 6. Are you saying give one stop more exposure to place this on zone 7 as in metering for the highlights? I usually go the other direction i.e. reduce one stop giving a zone 5 exposure.

Q.G. · Apr 16, 2009

ralnphot said:
The only thing I came away from the zone system with is to expose for the shadows, and develope for the highlights. This philosophy has served me well for many years.

It perhaps is good to remind ourselves that this is what people already did long before the ZS.
And that this is what the ZS is a systematic elaboration of.
Do we need that elaboration? It is a great teaching tool, no doubt. But apart from that, the routine of days b.zs. works splendidly.

largely · Apr 16, 2009

The late great Barry Thornton said that you cannot make a fine print from a coarse negative. Maybe an "acceptable" print but not a fine one.
I recommend that you go to his web site (www.barrythornton.com) and do some reading. You just need to decide what your personal level of acceptability is.
I personally don't take the time to calculate every exposure but learning to think in zone system terms has improved my work more than anything else I've undertaken.
good luck,

Larry

2F/2F · Apr 16, 2009

ronlamarsh said:
John,

I always thought that "palm of the hand" reading was approximately zone 6. Are you saying give one stop more exposure to place this on zone 7 as in metering for the highlights? I usually go the other direction i.e. reduce one stop giving a zone 5 exposure.

Nothing "is" any zone until it has been printed. Zones are not used to describe the real 3D world, but to describe tones in a print.

ANY meter reading theoretically tells you what to do to make the metered area a zone V; ANY metered area within the meter's range, no matter how dark or light it is in reality. That is the only thing that meters do. Thus adding one stop places the hand on zone VI.

Whether or not placing a palm on zone VI will replicate placing a grey card on zone V will depend on the palm.

If your particular palm reads exactly one EV higher than a grey card, what you are doing by following your method is to underexpose the whole shot by two stops. If your particular palm reflects exactly the same amount of light as a grey card, what you are doing underexposes the whole shot by one stop. Only if your palm reads one EV lower than a grey card would your method theoretically give you a "correct" exposure (and you need to wash your hands something fierce).

Your palm will work just fine as long as it is consistent in tone throughout your life and you calibrate everything to it.

Anscojohn · Apr 16, 2009

tiberiustibz said:
I will be shooting the 4x5 this weekend and would like to be able to achieve the tonality I get using a 2 grade paper or thereabouts. I don't like going up in grades of paper or filtration.

******
Based upon my experience, your using a Nr. 2 grade paper, and tweaking your film exposure and development to print the majority of your negs easily on that target paper is the sensible way to go. Growing up in b/w photography in the late fifties on, we were expected to use a Nr. 3 paper, most of the time; and film exposed at box speed except for Tri-x in Acufine or UFG--which was shot at EI 1000--and printed with Omega "condensor" enlargers. It worked.
But I have found that targeting a Nr. 2 for printing with a diffusion head enlarger made getting prints with the kind of tonal range and "substance" I find preferable to be the easy way out.
The clicker for this approach is using a soft-working film developer. I generally soup in d23, which has been characterized as "semi-compensating" or Rodinal 1:75 or 1:85, with normal agitation.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 16, 2009

I understand how to meter for it, but say I do not have the time to determine effective speeds and what my N+1 and -1 times are for a certain film. What should I do? Should I just guess at the times of development? Or should I just skip that part and take for granted Variable Contrast fiber paper?

Don't you want to be in control? Make time to learn your materials. You'll be happy in the end that you did.

umdah · May 2, 2009

What does it mean to ' expose for the shadows..' ? Thanks.

ralnphot said:
The only thing I came away from the zone system with is to expose for the shadows, and develope for the highlights. This philosophy has served me well for many years.

erikg · May 2, 2009

umdah said:
What does it mean to ' expose for the shadows..' ? Thanks.

This is a phrase that predates the zone system by decades. In zone system terms it works on the idea that exposure is the primary control for obtaining good shadow detail, while development is the primary control for highlight detail. So in practice, preferably once one has done some testing, you take a meter reading of a shadow value and you determine an exposure that will give you the amount of shadow detail that you desire. Your choice. The whole system was designed so one could make the pictures they want to make, not just get to a technically acceptable norm. It isn't necessary to get to either result, but many people find it useful.
As an aside, I found a reference from before the turn of the last century to this saying where its advice was explained thus: you should look at the shadow values on the ground glass and then stop down until they look a certain way. Then you would use an exposure time based on the speed of your plates. ("expose for the shadows") Then in the darkroom you should develop by inspection, halting development when the highlights looked a certain way.
This was before the widespread use of meters and certainly depended upon a lot of empirical evidence and experience.

phenix · May 2, 2009

Exposure influence on details. Development influence on contrast. While enlarging, you can largely influence the contrast, but very few the details (usually only the highlights by local flashing). So, if in a hurry when shooting, I would choose to overexpose 1~2 stops in normal and high contrast lighting, develop normally, and correct the contrast while enlarging. It is a compromise, of course. But, at enlarging you can change the contrast and flash the highlights to bring back the lost details, while you can do nothing about the lost details in shadows. However, there’s a reverse side too: while this compromise facilitates the shooting, it increases the labor in the darkroom. If that’s fine with you, try it.

BTW, the ZS is not about gray tones, but about details at the edges of the exposure range. The contrast comes implicitly, as a tool, not as a goal. For gray tones, I would choose the appropriate film and developer.

“umdah”, see this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060613001919/photography.cicada.com/zs/chapter1/

markbarendt · May 2, 2009

umdah said:
What does it mean to ' expose for the shadows..' ? Thanks.

umdah,

With B&W films, the exposure you choose at the camera generally controls how much shadow detail is available in the final negative. Then adjusting the development time is used to control the contrast.

This is also sometimes referred to as "over-expose and under-develop".

Simply put you ignore the middle and high tones and you set the camera's exposure so that; the darkest shadow tones in the scene where you want keep detail are in zone 3. Take a reflected reading from just that shadow area and then close down 2 stops and shoot.

This technique works very nicely for me for all my negative films with normal processing. This is easy, effective, reliable, and quick. It is my preferred method of setting exposure.

You can stop here and do fine. Negative film typically has enough headroom so that the highlights don't get blown out. (Warning, this whole method sucks with E-6 film.)

If you want to from there you can then get serious about the zone system and adjusting your development to match the scene's contrast and all that jazz.

umdah · May 2, 2009

Erik, Phenix, Mark..thanks a lot guys. real helpful. better to seem dumb then
remain dumb

Thanks once again.

nicefor88 · May 3, 2009

I agree with a sentence in F/F answer. Don't use it just because it's there.
You remember what HCB did? To capture the right moment is the key. Who cares if the film is slightly over or under-exposed?

Q.G. · May 3, 2009

There is no reason why not to capture the right moment and get the exposure right.

A zone system question

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