A viable E6 First Developer formula?

afriman · Feb 27, 2019

I've been toying with the idea of mixing my own E6 FD from scratch, but have been discouraged by the unavailability of hydroquinone monosulphonate. I don't want to compromise the results by using hydroquinone instead. Elsewhere on these forums, PE and others have suggested methods of synthesizing HM but it seems rather complicated and unpredictable, especially because the aim is to end up with pure, dry HM.

I recently came across this patent, which describes an alternative approach:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4366234A/en

It involves preparing two separate solutions, which are then mixed to make up the working developer. Hydroquinone monosulphonate is formed by synthesis in the first solution, but there is no attempt to isolate it in dry form. From my non-technical perspective, this seems much more doable.

I'd be very interested in the opinion of PE and/or any of the other experts here as to the reliability of this method.

Anon Ymous · Feb 27, 2019

I'm not an expert, but I'd say it won't give you HQMS in solution. It will most likely give you Hydroquinone and Sodium Sulfate. You see, If you mix Sodium Sulfite and Hydrogen Peroxide in solution you'll notice a rapid temperature increase. That's because Sulfite is oxidised to give Sulfate. Hydroquinone can be oxidised to Quinone (a precursor to HQMS) by peroxide, but it's a slow reaction that needs a catalyst to happen reasonably fast (iodide). Quinone will then need to react with Sulfite to give HQMS, but even that isn't as simple as implied. I have tried to synthesize HQMS via Quinone synthesis, but it's a messy process and Quinone isn't exactly a benign substance. The small amount of it I was able to make convinced me that it's a bad idea. It certainly is a hugely irritating substance. In the end, I was able to source HQMS-K for a reasonable price.

Sorry for being a party pooper.

afriman · Feb 27, 2019

Thanks for the input. This goes way beyond my almost non-existent knowledge of chemistry. Does this mean that one should just forget about mixing your own E6 FD? Are the formulas using hydroquinone really that bad?

Anon Ymous · Feb 27, 2019

See for yourself here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...arnig-longer-than-assumend.32721/#post-465875

afriman · Feb 27, 2019

Wow, this is very helpful. Thanks!

lantau · Feb 28, 2019

Suvatlar in Hamburg is selling it. 70g for €9.99 (without VAT).

Is it a problem to have chemicals shipped to South Africa?

afriman · Feb 28, 2019

I actually ended up ordering from Suvatlar. He warned me that he couldn't guarantee that it would be allowed through by customs, but in the end there was no problem.

As you probably know, most dealers won't ship liquids internationally. Powder chemicals from B&H haven't been a problem, except for a few that they refuse to send.

Interestingly, I managed to order a liquid Tetenal kit from one of the dealers in Germany - not sure if it was FotoImpex or Macodirect. Even though the website stated explicitly that it was not possible to ship the item internationally, I took a chance and put it in my basket. I checked out without a hitch and it was promptly delivered to me by DHL. It would seem that it's more often the dealers that are paranoid than the authorities at our end.

afriman · Feb 28, 2019

Now if only I could find a supplier of hydroquinone monosulfonate at a reasonable price...

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 28, 2019

afriman said:
I actually ended up ordering from Suvatlar. He warned me that he couldn't guarantee that it would be allowed through by customs, but in the end there was no problem.

As you probably know, most dealers won't ship liquids internationally. Powder chemicals from B&H haven't been a problem, except for a few that they refuse to send.

Interestingly, I managed to order a liquid Tetenal kit from one of the dealers in Germany - not sure if it was FotoImpex or Macodirect. Even though the website stated explicitly that it was not possible to ship the item internationally, I took a chance and put it in my basket. I checked out without a hitch and it was promptly delivered to me by DHL. It would seem that it's more often the dealers that are paranoid than the authorities at our end.

While not exactly about chemicals, so-called environmentalists got us to a point where a tiny lithium button cell (in an just as small Christmas lights remote) is so hazardous, it cannot go by air. Meanwhile politicians keep on farting at subway station and it continues to go unnoticed.

BH will not ship Rodinal, store pick up only. At least that is what the basket says and I could not punch my card out.

Rudeofus · Feb 28, 2019

afriman said:
Now if only I could find a supplier of hydroquinone monosulfonate at a reasonable price...

You can ask Saban for a quote on higher amount, price usually comes down if you order more.

afriman · Feb 28, 2019

lantau said:
Suvatlar in Hamburg is selling it. 70g for €9.99 (without VAT).

Hang on -- is it hydroquinone monusulfonate you're referring to? I assumed it was CD3 and CD4, which I did get from Suvatlar. If he really has HQMS at that price, that's great!

mshchem · Feb 28, 2019

Witold said:
Meanwhile politicians keep on farting at subway station

Well said.

afriman · Feb 28, 2019

The confusion is all my fault. I wrote about CD3 and CD4 in another thread, and got mixed up. That's old age for you. Really good news about Suvatlar and HQMS.

Anon Ymous · Feb 28, 2019

afriman said:
Hang on -- is it hydroquinone monusulfonate you're referring to? I assumed it was CD3 and CD4, which I did get from Suvatlar. If he really has HQMS at that price, that's great!

Yes, that's right, it is Hydrochinon-sulfonsäure-Kalium in German. Item number 95 in his catalog: http://moersch-photochemie.de/moersch/webroot/files/Preisliste_online_2018final.pdf

Don't forget to buy some citrazinic acid as well (Citrazinsäure).

afriman · Feb 28, 2019

Anon Ymous said:
Yes, that's right, it is Hydrochinon-sulfonsäure-Kalium in German. Item number 95 in his catalog: http://moersch-photochemie.de/moersch/webroot/files/Preisliste_online_2018final.pdf

Don't forget to buy some citrazinic acid as well (Citrazinsäure).

Thank you. Once again, you've been very helpful.

mohmad khatab · Jun 6, 2019

afriman said:
Now if only I could find a supplier of hydroquinone monosulfonate at a reasonable price...

I want to know - how much price did you get in the end?

A viable E6 First Developer formula?

Deleted member 88956

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