A tip - sticky spirals and how to eliminate this issue.

TonyB65 · Sep 23, 2018

I'm fairly new to C-41 developing, and I'm self-taught, but a frequent problem I've come across is resistance to winding on film on a Paterson plastic spiral in a warm changing bag. I've learned that C-41 chemicals go off pretty quickly, even using vacuum pumps on glass bottles to preserve the chemicals. To counter that I've decided to wait until I have enough rolls to develop and then process them all with a week or so to get the best quality and value from my C-41 kits. I hand develop them using a Paterson tank that takes two 120 rolls at a time, as that's what I mostly shoot. This presents a secondary problem in that the stabiliser makes my spirals sticky, even after drying, and causes real problems winding on a new roll in a warm changing bag. To clarify, I'm sometimes using the same spirals (dried) within 24 hrs of the last rolls. I tried a couple of things, and I always use a pencil to put some carbon on the spirals to lubricate them, but it was still a significant problem.
Today I tried something different, and apologies if this is already a known technique, although I haven't read about this anywhere else. I soaked my just used spirals in a dish containing fabric softener for about 30 minutes hoping that it would remove the detergent like stabiliser and make winding on again much easier. I left them to dry and tried them again this evening. I'm very happy to report that it worked even better than I'd hoped, the film slide on as easy as anything, probably better than I'd ever experienced before, so the experiment was a total success. This means that I can develop all my rolls on a daily basis with no issues, if you haven't tried it I definitely recommend it, it works a treat.

Svenedin · Sep 23, 2018

Thanks for the tip. I find that clipping a small piece off the corners of the leading edge of 120 makes it much less likely to stick on a Paterson reel (as you would do with 35mm). It also helps to have lots of reels so that they are definitely completely dry and a cycle through the dishwasher at hot setting seems to get them really clean. I do sometimes load 2x 120 films on a single reel (they are designed to take up to 220 length). This saves chemicals but is a bit of a dark art and is a bit tricky (you tape the two films together using the tape from one of them, they must be perfectly aligned or they won't load).

TonyB65 · Sep 23, 2018

Thanks, good tips also. I've always clipped the corners but the stabiliser really makes my reels sticky and l sometimes do two batches on the same day so the fabric softener trick means l don't have to dread the second loading. I use the Bellini C-41 kit which relies on stab washes at the end and maybe that makes them worse? I love that kit though, l get great results with it.

Svenedin · Sep 23, 2018

TonyB65 said:
Thanks, good tips also. I've always clipped the corners but the stabiliser really makes my reels sticky and l sometimes do two batches on the same day so the fabric softener trick means l don't have to dread the second loading. I use the Bellini C-41 kit which relies on stab washes at the end and maybe that makes them worse? I love that kit though, l get great results with it.

I also use a changing bag and that does make matters worse. The moisture from sweat makes the emulsion sticky very quickly. The more awkward a reel is to load, the more you sweat and the worse it gets. My darkroom is dark enough for printing but I don't quite trust it for faster materials like film (I also cannot replace film but I can always make another print) so I use a changing bag but I don't put my arms through the holes. I just do the loading with my arms through the open zipped end and it doesn't get nearly so hot in there. Might work for you too if you have a dark enough room. If I have to reuse a reel quickly I leave them on top of a radiator to dry as moisture can easily hide in the narrow spirals.

GRHazelton · Sep 23, 2018

I've had success with separating the 120 from the paper, and loading the end with the remnant of the tape which held the film to the paper. The tape stiffens the film just a bit. Also I run the reels through our dishwasher. My Flora is a very tolerant spouse. Of course, YMMV!!

Richard Man · Sep 23, 2018

Which C41 kit are you using? Occasionally (not common) I have working solution that is ~3 months and still no problem. I am using Kodak Flexcolor LU/LORR one shot.

As for stablizer / final rinse - I don't do the last step with the tank. I just fill a plastic bucket with the final rinse solution (which can be reused many number of times) and put only film in there without the tank or reels.

AgX · Sep 23, 2018

A final rinse mainly consists of a water-based surfactant, in its working solution strongly diluted. Remaining of it should be easily washed off.
Likely at your reels gelatin has built up, which could be removed by warm alkaline solution maybe added by protease, as contained in some textile washing compounds.

mshchem · Sep 24, 2018

I always load in a dark room. I get overheated using a changing bag. Paterson is one of the easiest plastic reels to load. I have donated the older stained ones. Watch the little steel balls. A little graphite on the steel balls help too. I leave the film on the reel, for a one at a time, 30 second final rinse, then I strip the film off the reel, and the reel goes into a bucket of hot water, film to hang and air dry.

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

Richard Man said:
Which C41 kit are you using? Occasionally (not common) I have working solution that is ~3 months and still no problem. I am using Kodak Flexcolor LU/LORR one shot.

As for stablizer / final rinse - I don't do the last step with the tank. I just fill a plastic bucket with the final rinse solution (which can be reused many number of times) and put only film in there without the tank or reels.

I use the Bellini C-41 kit, which I'm very happy with, it doesn't keep for too long and I'm fine with batch developing my films within a couple of weeks after collecting enough rolls. I find I get into a rhythm which makes the whole process quicker and less prone to errors and I don't have to worry about the chemicals going off within an indeterminate time. I've just completed the maximum amount mentioned in the kit (16 rolls) but the chemicals are still fresh so I'm going to keep going with less important rolls and see how far I can get. I've been extending the developing time by 15 seconds after every 4 rolls as recommended and so far so good. Apparently this kit is capable of doing more than recommended by people who use it regularly so we'll see.

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

Svenedin said:
I also use a changing bag and that does make matters worse. The moisture from sweat makes the emulsion sticky very quickly. The more awkward a reel is to load, the more you sweat and the worse it gets. My darkroom is dark enough for printing but I don't quite trust it for faster materials like film (I also cannot replace film but I can always make another print) so I use a changing bag but I don't put my arms through the holes. I just do the loading with my arms through the open zipped end and it doesn't get nearly so hot in there. Might work for you too if you have a dark enough room. If I have to reuse a reel quickly I leave them on top of a radiator to dry as moisture can easily hide in the narrow spirals.

Thanks, I don't have a darkroom yet but I'm pretty proficient with the changing bag, it was just the sticky reels that have been the problem. The radiator tip is something I haven't tried, so I'll probably try them now it's time for the heating to go on.

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

AgX said:
A final rinse mainly consists of a water-based surfactant, in its working solution strongly diluted. Remaining of it should be easily washed off.
Likely at your reels gelatin has built up, which could be removed by warm alkaline solution maybe added by protease, as contained in some textile washing compounds.

That's what the fabric conditioner appeared to do, it stripped all the invisible stab residue off the reels. I only used a light dilution and left it for 30 minutes or so and it completely did the trick.

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

mshchem said:
I always load in a dark room. I get overheated using a changing bag. Paterson is one of the easiest plastic reels to load. I have donated the older stained ones. Watch the little steel balls. A little graphite on the steel balls help too. I leave the film on the reel, for a one at a time, 30 second final rinse, then I strip the film off the reel, and the reel goes into a bucket of hot water, film to hang and air dry.

The process using the Bellini kit requires multiple stab washes in the tank at the end of development so that doesn't really work for me, but I'm confident I've overcome the issue now, but thanks for the tip anyway, I sometimes use the smaller 500ml digibase kit for economy, and that has a more normal process.

AgX · Sep 24, 2018

TonyB65 said:
That's what the fabric conditioner appeared to do, it stripped all the invisible stab residue off the reels. I only used a light dilution and left it for 30 minutes or so and it completely did the trick.

But fabric conditioner as main ingredient got a tenside, which is the same group out of which the wetting agents originate...

Fabric conditioner is different from standard washing agent.

Raphael · Sep 24, 2018

I process routinely E6 and C41 with kits (Tetenal, in my case), and as Richard, when doing the stabilizer step, I never let the film on reel or in the tank.
I pour stabilizer in a 1L plastic jug, carefully remove the wet film from the opened reel, and immerse it completely in stabilizer.
It's a little tricky at start, especially with long roll of film (36 p in 35mm, or 220) but with a little practical experience, it does the job, and it reduces greatly reels contamination.
Regards,

Raphael

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

AgX said:
But fabric conditioner as main ingredient got a tenside, which is the same group out of which the wetting agents originate...

Fabric conditioner is different from standard washing agent.

The reason I tried it is because in normal use it effectively counteracts detergent in a wash, and it definitely works in the same capacity for plastic spirals, anyone can try it if they doubt what I'm saying.

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

Use disposable nitrile gloves whilst loading the reels. It completely eliminates the problem of perspiration causing binding.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 24, 2018

Richard Man said:
Which C41 kit are you using? Occasionally (not common) I have working solution that is ~3 months and still no problem. I am using Kodak Flexcolor LU/LORR one shot.

As for stablizer / final rinse - I don't do the last step with the tank. I just fill a plastic bucket with the final rinse solution (which can be reused many number of times) and put only film in there without the tank or reels.

C-41 as one shot ? Can you please elaborate a bit on that ? And do know where to by the necessary chemicals ?

TonyB65 · Sep 24, 2018

GLS said:
Use disposable nitrile gloves whilst loading the reels. It completely eliminates the problem of perspiration causing binding.

I don't need to worry about that now, I just developed two 120 rolls this evening, soaked the reels for 30 mins in dilute fabric conditioner, dried them on the radiator and loaded another two rolls onto the same spirals as quick as you like, you barely even feel the ball bearing at the start, works a treat.

devb28 · Sep 24, 2018

I clean the threads on my spools with a toothbrush and some dish soap. No need to wait for soaking! I wouldn't use any dish soap that contains lanolin, however.

AgX · Sep 25, 2018

What would be the difference between wetting agent and dish soap? (In the sense of getting off claimed harmful residue of wetting agent.)
However due to the use of a toothbrush you could better wipe off residual gelatin.

BMbikerider · Sep 25, 2018

I never have a problem loading film into spirals, except with manual cameras where the film is wound onto the take up spool in a reverse direction so I load from the casset spool end where the corners of film are usually rounded off.
I was going to suggest using a space in the dishwasher but was beaten to it by many. In fact I rinse all items out in the dish washer every so often including the JOBO measuring beakers which keeps them white instead of them going yellow.

twelvetone12 · Sep 25, 2018

I use an old toothbrush with hand soap and warm water. 30 seconds of scrubbing after each use and the film never sticks.

GLS · Sep 25, 2018

AgX said:
What would be the difference between wetting agent and dish soap?

In principle, not much. Both utilise some kind of surfactant to achieve their purpose. Of course, the type of surfactant used (ionic vs non-ionic, chain length, functionality etc) will have some effect on aqueous solubility and thus residue formation, but I doubt it's significant in this context.

Richard Man · Sep 25, 2018

ludwighagelstein said:
C-41 as one shot ? Can you please elaborate a bit on that ? And do know where to by the necessary chemicals ?

Kodak Flexcolor LU/LORR. There are a few threads on it. I get them from unique photo/

A tip - sticky spirals and how to eliminate this issue.

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