A thorny decision

epatsellis · Dec 10, 2006

First the back story:

Prior to moving to the Midwest (from New England), I loaned several pieces of equipment to a friend, as he was trying to get more LF experience. (omega 45D/180mm Sironar-N, B&J 8x10 commercial/305 Caltar/165 Angulon/355 G-Claron, various 4x5 and 8x10 film holders, a pentax spotmeter, Gossen Ultra Pro, 2 or 3 Tripods, etc. With the understanding that they be returned once I was settled down. About 6 months after I moved here, I went back home and stopped by to see him, was told he was in the middle of a big, funded project and could he borrow them for a little while longer. I agreed. I've kept in touch with him off and on, and until recently wasn't the least bit uncomfortable with everything.

Now he's a VP of Sales and Marketing for a paper company, owns a B&B, etc. for the last year, He's not returned calls, and quite frankly, I'm sure that I'll never see the equipment again.

Now the Question, Do I send him a registered letter asking bluntly what his intentions are in regards to the return of my personal property, or just let it go and move on?

The hard part is when I bought everything, it was a struggle, over a 3 year period and I just resent the fact that I'm giving up 3 years of working extra jobs, living cheap, etc. (as it would be now to replace it) My first impulse is to get in the van and drive back home, get his ass out of bed if need be and get the stuff, but I suspect it's long been sold. Any suggestions?

erie

Dave Parker · Dec 10, 2006

I would send him a letter, explaining that you would like to have your equipment back, I would also include a list of equipment as you remember it, with the current cost factors included, just explain to him that you loaned this equipment in good faith and now that he has moved on, you need to get your property back, of course by including the cost factors and such in there, if he has sold your equipment, then you would expect him to pay the replacement costs for the equipment. Send it via registered mail with return receipt requested, that way you know he receives it, then proceed accordingly based on his response. I would not write the gear off, also in the initial contact, I would not make any threats or such..just a nice letter typed up to feel the waters of how difficult or easy it may be to get your equipment.

Dave

Curt · Dec 10, 2006

Rule Number one; never loan tools.
Rule Number two; never loan photo equipment.

Norm from the New Yankee Workshop has a sign in his shop.

"I never loan tools; I don't want to lose my tools and I don't want to lose my friends."

jovo · Dec 10, 2006

Hence the notion that no good deed will ever go unpunished.

Yes, I would confront the guy. What, after all, do you have to lose? If he is still a 'friend', he'll aplogize and return your stuff; if he isn't, then you can have at him and at least unload how you feel about his being a schmuck. If you do nothing, you lose your stuff, swallow your anger/irritation/hurt/whatever and have it churning inside you, which is unhealthy and totally unproductive.

Kick some ass....the worst thing that'll happen is you'll hurt your toe if you kick hard enough!

Curt · Dec 10, 2006

Or tell him that you need your stuff back for a project with an attorney.

zenrhino · Dec 10, 2006

Sounds like you've already lost your friend.

May as well get your gear back.

epatsellis · Dec 10, 2006

Funny thing too, Were it any of the numerous Snap On tools I have, I wouldn't have loaned them out in a second. Somehow, I have (used to) a trusting personality that believes people are basically honest, though the last several years would prove otherwise.

erie

Curt said:
Rule Number one; never loan tools.
Rule Number two; never loan photo equipment.

Norm from the New Yankee Workshop has a sign in his shop.

"I never loan tools; I don't want to lose my tools and I don't want to lose my friends."

Dave Parker · Dec 10, 2006

epatsellis said:
Funny thing too, Were it any of the numerous Snap On tools I have, I wouldn't have loaned them out in a second. Somehow, I have (used to) a trusting personality that believes people are basically honest, though the last several years would prove otherwise.

erie

See with me, I would loan my tools before I would ever even let someone touch my camera gear, when my wife became interested in photography, I bought her a complete set up virtually identical to my set and she don't even go close to my gear! LOL But I consider my camera gear as my tools...

Dave

glennfromwy · Dec 10, 2006

There's a legal term for that. It's called theft by conversion and you have good grounds for a law suit, if not possible criminal prosecution. Send a certified letter, return receipt requested, demanding immediate return of your property. Include an inventory list. My opinion is that it would be worth the 50 bucks or whatever to have an attorney write this, just for the impact of the professional letter head. Don't let him get away with this. I speak from experience, being Mr Nice Guy for too many years, and paying dearly. Until I woke up.

epatsellis · Dec 10, 2006

I did for a few years, did alot, and alot and alot....of tabletop work. Got burnt out and started helping a friend in his sign shop, ended up being the smartest thing I ever did.

erie

JBrunner · Dec 10, 2006

Don't mess around. Take care of it and get it out of your hair. Send a cordial letter. While your waiting for the letter to get there, call him twice a day. Its your stuff. The onus is on him to make everything cool.

MattKing · Dec 10, 2006

I am assuming that your interest is in getting your equipment back, or appropriately replaced, rather than compensation for your loss of use the equipment. If you do intend to press a "loss of use" claim, seek legal advice, and don't follow the suggestion that follows.

I'd suggest a registered letter where you make it clear that you expect your property back, or its value in compensation, but offer him the opportunity to return the items and explain why he hasn't returned them earlier - make it clear that if you get your stuff back, you will be relieved and thankful.

There is a tiny chance that the reason he hasn't dealt with this, is that he is embarrassed and has just put it off to avoid the reality of having to face up to his shoddy treatment of you. If you give him a chance to save face, he might take you up on it.

It may get you nowhere, but (subject to my initial warning) it cannot hurt.

Matt

rjas · Dec 11, 2006

A friend of mine lent another friend a large amount of money to help purchase a new bike. A year and a bit went by and this guy quit riding, starting selling legal drugs (i dunno, don't ask me) and never ended up paying him. my friend went to the guys house and took the bike back but since then its depreciated in value alot and he cant even sell it for the portion of the money he loaned the guy for it. I always though that he shoulda used excessive force but its his choice...

i think you should get in your car and drive over there and ask him for your stuff back. youve lost a friend but at least you get your stuff back. if not what can the guy do? explain he sold it? I can't imagine anyone being able to NOT pay you after something like that.

Gerald Koch · Dec 11, 2006

Rule 1: Never loan tools. Cameras are tools.
Rule 2: Never violate Rule 1.

John Bartley · Dec 11, 2006

jovo said:
.....

Yes, I would confront the guy. What, after all, do you have to lose? If he is still a 'friend', he'll aplogize and return your stuff; if he isn't, then you can have at him and at least unload how you feel about his being a schmuck. If you do nothing, you lose your stuff, swallow your anger/irritation/hurt/whatever and have it churning inside you, which is unhealthy and totally unproductive.

.....

My feelings exactly.

Bob Carnie · Dec 11, 2006

This is good advice.
I do not lend out photo books anymore as I have been burned on many occasions.
Send a letter that is non confrontational, If you do not get a satisfactory reply , go get your gear.

Curt said:
Rule Number one; never loan tools.
Rule Number two; never loan photo equipment.

Norm from the New Yankee Workshop has a sign in his shop.

"I never loan tools; I don't want to lose my tools and I don't want to lose my friends."

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Dec 11, 2006

epatsellis said:
Now he's a VP of Sales and Marketing for a paper company, owns a B&B, etc.

Are you sure he didn't get a lucrative contract being the subject of a mockumentary detailing his each and every embarassing moves?

More seriously, if he is in business and not selling crack to minors, he has an incentive to keep his name untarnished. Can you reach him at his office? Someone may be able to account for his whereabouts, so that could help you figure out what he's up to. A firm but cordial registered letter would be the next obvious step, as others have mentioned.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 11, 2006

If all the above fails, make some Italian friends in the scrap metal recycling business in New Jersey, and ask them to make a polite request of your ex-friend to return the property. Oh, and give them the chit on the loan to go and collect, at Sicilian interest rates.

Peter Black · Dec 12, 2006

epatsellis said:
The hard part is when I bought everything, it was a struggle, over a 3 year period and I just resent the fact that I'm giving up 3 years of working extra jobs, living cheap, etc. (as it would be now to replace it)

erie

Do you think this is the kind of guy who would have put in this extra time to get something and then just let it be taken from him? Thought not! I'd certainly want to work out the actual cost of all this equipment when you loaned it to him as he is probably the kind of guy who can relate to hard figures. If it was a car and he'd put 10K on the clock you'd probably expect him to cover the hit on depreciation, so don't immediately write off any value over the time of borrowing.

If he gets away with screwing his friends, he'll be far worse with others he deals with, so do many unknowns a favour and get after him now!

gr82bart · Dec 13, 2006

My fellow human beings continually disappoint me.

Regards, Art.

PhotoPete · Dec 13, 2006

Where in New England is he located? Perhaps some nearby NE-APUGGERS could visit him in person and present your case, since the basic difficulty seems to be in making contact with him.

epatsellis · Dec 26, 2006

I finally compiled a list, complete with serial #'s and replacement cost, I had forgotten that some of the bits and pieces were brand new, like 8 8x10 flmholders, an Omega 45D with compendium, fresnel and a brand spanking new 180 Sironar-N, not to mention the B&J 8x10 Commercial View (w/a 305 Caltar/Ilex and a 165 Angulon in a dial set compur)I totally refinished in satin black lacquer, put a brand spanking new bellows on and polished all the nickel plating off of the brass bits, and clear lacquered (looked absolutely gorgeous, actually). Or the brand new barrel mounted 355 G-Claron I had in the box with some of the other stuff (have you seen what these cost when you can find one new?).

All told nearly $10K at replacement (mostly used replacement, if/when you can find them, at that) I've forwarded the list to a friend that knows a few lawyers that owe him a favor or two, hopefully one of them can help, as I'm not working right now and it's taking it's toll financially.

I'd just like to get my stuff and get on with my life, though somehow I don't think that's going to be possible, just a gut feeling, but it wouldn't be the first time I trusted somebody at their word only to get screwed over.

erie

removed account4 · Dec 27, 2006

i lent a stuff once who said he would read it and give it back in a few weeks, after 5 months i had to go to his house and ask for it back (before i left town).
he searched for it, looked really guilty and gave it back to me ...
sometimes people get busy and forget what they are supposed to do/said they would do, maybe this is what happened with your friend.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Dec 31, 2006

The sad thing is there are plenty of honest people who'd love to use that sort of gear just for a weekend, and dishonest people like this don't help the nice people out. I hope you get your gear back, and keep us updated.
Photographers have a lot of pent up rage they cant afford to take out on cameras, a jerk would seem fitting

Drew B. · Oct 30, 2007

..just found this old thread. Has the equipment been returned? Do you want us (neapugers) to visit this person (I'll bring my Tataglia relatives with me to make him an offer he can't refuse)

drew

A thorny decision

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