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A test for paper-clearing time

miha

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Some authors recommend the paper strip to be either sulphide toned or developed after fxinig and washing. What's the purpose of these additional steps?
 

Gerald C Koch

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What you want is the Kodak Residual Silver test ST-1. The test solution when placed on the border of a print measures the effectiveness of fixing and washing. A correctly processed print will produce a barely perceptible cream coloration.
 
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miha

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No, I would like to know why some tone or develop after fixing for clearing time. These test solutions are not available outside the USA.
 

MattKing

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Some authors recommend the paper strip to be either sulphide toned or developed after fxinig and washing. What's the purpose of these additional steps?
Some toning regimes will be effective at revealing the same problems as the residual silver test reveals. So the toning (or bleach and redevelop toning) steps serve as a check on your fixing regime. If it stains when you tone, you need to fix more completely.
 
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miha

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I guess it makes sense as subsequent developing would reveal any halide left.
 

darkroommike

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If you are testing paper fixer you can not really tell when the paper clears but if you fix a bit of paper in room light, then wash, and then develop it or sulfide tone it it will turn dark if there is any silver halide left. So if it turns color the paper needs longer fixation.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Some authors recommend the paper strip to be either sulphide toned or developed after fxinig and washing. What's the purpose of these additional steps?
the idea is that all residual silver(silver that wasn't removed by the fixer)will tone or develop and show a lack of fixing;if no toning or developing takes place,fixing was complete and perfect.
 
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miha

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Thanks, that makes sense. I wonder why this test is not more widely promoted, no need for the ST-1.
 
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Thanks, that makes sense. I wonder why this test is not more widely promoted, no need for the ST-1.

For a couple of reasons:

First, finding the clearing time for a particular paper does not automatically give you the fixing time. People argue over film fixing time (should it be 2x or 3x clearing time?). So, once you have a clearing time, how do you know how much longer to fix the paper so that it is adequately fixed? Paper formulations are different than film, so I would be hesitant to use the "2x-rule".

Rendering halides in the paper emulsion undevelopable by fixing them is not the same as making them soluble and able to be easily washed out. There could be (probably are) lots of silver compounds left in the paper emulsion or, in the case of fiber-base paper, in the paper base, that won't react to developer, but are not yet at the point that they can be washed out. If you just double the clearing time, you may not be giving enough time for the fixer to do its job.

Papers, especially fiber-base papers need a lot fresher fixer to fix them adequately than film. For film, dissolved silver in the fix can go to 10g/liter without serious effect. For papers, even for non-archival "commercial grade" processing, dissolved silver needs to be kept under 2g/l. For optimum permanence, dissolved silver in the fixer should be somewhere in the 0.2-0.5g/liter range. One use of finding the clearing time for film is for knowing when to discard the fix. The standard rule is to discard the fix when the clearing time approaches 2x that in fresh fix. For paper, with its need for much less exhausted fixer, finding a factor of the clearing time to indicate when to toss the fix is just not a precise enough way to determine fixer exhaustion. The "2x-rule" for film just doesn't apply here.

If you can't get chemicals to test, then follow the manufacturers' capacity recommendations and use two-bath fixing for papers.

As for testing: First, if you are unable to test, please trust the manufacturers who have and follow their recommendations. This will give you better results with less trouble than fiddling around with paper-clearing times. Ilford has good info here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

If you can get selenium toner, you can test for residual silver at least. Kodak gives instructions for using their KRST as a test reagent. Place a drop of selenium toner mixed 1+9 on a blank white area of a fixed and well-washed print. Let stand for 2-3 minutes and then rinse off. Any stain other than a very light yellowing indicates residual silver. This test works in lieu of ST-1. I just use KRST concentrate undiluted for this test.

HT-2 chemicals are a bit trickier to source, but by using a wash-aid and using wash-time recommendations plus a bit of a safety factor, you should be able to be confident that your print washing is adequate.

Hope this helps,

Doremus
 
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miha

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Hi Doremus

For a couple of reasons:

First, finding the clearing time for a particular paper does not automatically give you the fixing time.
Why not, clearing time should be enough, adding 100% or so more is a safety factor.

SNIP: so I would be hesitant to use the "2x-rule".
Why... too little, too much?

Possibly but not necessary true. But then again, ST-1 reveals no more, does it?

As for the rest of your post Doremus, I have been following Ilford's recommendation for a decade if not more but my OP was not really about best practice etc.
 

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The problem with using paper developer for testing complete fixation is that some paper developers produce dyes themselves, usually from humic acids formed by oxidized developer. These dyes can yield misleading results.

If you want to use sepia toner for testing fixation, there are two types:
  1. so called odorless toners, which are Thiourea plus an alkali. Thiourea is a fixer by itself and may alter the result of a fixer test.
  2. the smelly toners, typically consisting of Sodium Sulfide, and guess what? That's exactly what you get if you buy ST-1 or similar.
The biggest advantage of getting ST-1 is the established color chart, which tells you precisely how to interpret the result. It is trivial to make a full and extremely cheap substitute for ST-1 yourself (check darkroom cookbook for formula), so there is no reason to buy it twice IMHO.

Note, that a fixer tester alone doesn't tell the whole story. Even a perfectly fixed print will deteriorate if washing is incomplete. And that's where it gets really messy: better fixing means shorter required wash time, and less than perfect fixation can be covered up to some extent by prolonged washing.

Reason is simple: mostly complete fixation will leave poorly soluble mixed alkali silver thiosulfate compounds in the emulsion, which take much, much longer to wash out. Sadly, this runs contrary to typical dark room sessions, which start with fresh fixer and hours of wash times, and end with exhausted fixer and no time for prolonged wash cycles. Fortunately there are residual hypo testers for checking archival washing.
 

Rudeofus

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Why not, clearing time should be enough, adding 100% or so more is a safety factor.
Our eyes are not a good indicator for archival fixation, and the clip clearing test establishes exactly one thing: time it takes fixer to remove enough silver halide such that the clip becomes mostly transparent. In the course of extended experiments researchers determined across a wide range of established film products, that fixing for twice the visually established clearing time typically leads to archival results.

This purely heuristic result has worked well so far, and anyone challenging this many decades old rule of thumb better provide some verifiable fixer test results to back up their claims.
 
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miha

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I have some Agfa Viradon NEW left, might use this instead of a developer.
 

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hi miha
i am always paranoid about not fixing enough
so i will split fix as i always have and after the 2nd fix it sits in
a bath with running water / rinse
then i mix fresh fixer and re-fix everthing to the times
recommended by the paper makers. i often do the same
with film.
while i've been told over fixing will bleach my prints and films
(maybe i am lucky ?) my stuff looks fine...
then i rinse, fixer remove and wash, i've done the residual
fixer tests and come out clean, never really toned anything

have fun with viradon !
 

RalphLambrecht

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Dorms is correct but the 2x rule works reasonably well.Overfixing is not the answer residual silver complexes are hard to wash out of paper fibers.
 

RalphLambrecht

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a lot of this is avoided by two-bath fixing in film-strength fixer, HCA and a 30-minute wash
 

Rudeofus

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I have some Agfa Viradon NEW left, might use this instead of a developer.
I would like to point out, that most selenium toners are also loaded with Thiosulfate. Unless you have good reference samples, I would not blindly follow the results of an uncalibrated test with randomly chosen "fixer test solutions".
 
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miha

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I would like to point out, that most selenium toners are also loaded with Thiosulfate. Unless you have good reference samples, I would not blindly follow the results of an uncalibrated test with randomly chosen "fixer test solutions".

Viradon NEW contains no selenium.
 

M Carter

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Unless I'm wrong, it's pretty simple...

  1. Leave some trimmable border on the print, even 1/8";
  2. After fixing and a quick rinse, squeegie the print, blot the border dry with a paper towel, and apply a TINY droplet of straight selenium toner to the border; if it yellows or turns brown, your fixer is shot or your time was too short.
  3. After final wash, squeegie, blot, and use Residual hypo test on the same border area - just takes a tiny droplet
If you use selenium toning to test proper fixing, and your highlights and borders turn yellow, your print is screwed.

If my methodology is off, let me know?
 

Gerald C Koch

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Kodak suggests using Rapid Selenium Toner diluted 1+9 as a substitute for ST-1. The test is performed as described by Kodak. Mix up a small amount and keep it in a dropper bottle. The solution should keep for about six months.
 
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Hi Doremus, Why not, clearing time should be enough, adding 100% or so more is a safety factor.
Why... too little, too much? ... Possibly but not necessary true. But then again, ST-1 reveals no more, does it? ....


First, I'm talking about two different things here when referring to a uses of a test for clearing time.

One is using film-clearing time for determining film fixing time vs. using paper clearing time for determining paper fixing time. Due to the different composition of paper emulsions and the different fixing requirements for paper vs film, a paper clearing-time test may not yield useful information for determining fixing time. Film takes much longer to fix than paper for the most part, and can be fixed in fixer that would be much too exhausted for adequate (not to mention archival) paper fixing. Finding a paper-clearing time and then doubling it may well result in a longer-than-necessary fixing time. It could well be that 2x paper clearing time is fine, but how do we then modify that when the fixer becomes partially exhausted? With film, I do a clearing test before each batch through the fix to find the minimum time for that batch. I'm not about to do a paper clearing-time test before each print through the fix...

The second issue is the use of the clearing test is to decide when to discard your film fixer. Fixer for paper needs to be discarded at a much lower level of dissolved silver than film fixer. If film fixer reaches approx. 8-10g/l of dissolved silver when the clearing time approaches twice that in fresh fixer, then where is the point for 0.5g/l for paper fixer? 1.5x, 1.2x? or even less? I'd not want to rely on this without calibrating it, and even then it may not be anywhere near reliable.

I would like to point out, that most selenium toners are also loaded with Thiosulfate. Unless you have good reference samples, I would not blindly follow the results of an uncalibrated test with randomly chosen "fixer test solutions".
Kodak suggests using Rapid Selenium Toner diluted 1+9 as a substitute for ST-1. The test is performed as described by Kodak. Mix up a small amount and keep it in a dropper bottle. The solution should keep for about six months.

As far as calibration goes: Even the ST-1 test is subjective in that one has to estimate stain density. For the test using selenium toner, Kodak gives the following instructions (according to Tech Pub. J-1, 1973, p.41.):

1. Place a drop of the diluted solution on a squeegeed, white margin of a print or a clear part of film.
2. Wait two to three minutes; then wipe off the drop with a clean blotter or cloth. Any discoloration other than a slight cream tint indicates the presence of silver. Refix.

My tests with selenium toner as a reagent routinely show no discoloration at all; I feel fairly confident that I've fixed my prints well. I also use KRST straight instead of 1+9, which should be an even better indicator. For more info see this thread, especially post #18: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)


This is basically what I do. I think you're just fine. That said, I spent time with a bunch of 4x5" pieces of paper pushing my work-flow to the limit, i.e., till I had exhausted the fixer and underwashed. For the former, I ran prints through the fix way past the recommended capacity; for the latter, I pulled prints early at regular intervals. Once one has established the limits of one's workflow and added a comfortable safety margin, then regular spot testing as you describe is a good control. I spot test the last print through the fix and the last print into the washer every batch (it's usually the same print).

I agree that testing for adequate washing is important too. If sourcing the chemicals is difficult though, making sure you fix well with fresh fix and not exceeding capacity and washing for the recommended time plus a bit for safety should do the job. That's what I'd do when in doubt. I test though.

Best,

Doremus
 

M Carter

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I'd guess in most developed areas, ST is available. The residual hypo test may be more limited, but I understand it's a simple formula that uses (maybe?) some silver compound.

My issues with the hypo test is it's about $25 for a 100ml bottle - which would last me about a decade; but they say it's good for 24 months. I have trouble throwing away expensive chemistry - mine is 3 years old, I've used maybe 20% of it if that, and it still seems to work. Maybe I need to check with PE about the "real" life of it, and if regrigeration or antyhing would prolong it.
 

Gerald C Koch

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If you are referring to the Kodak test solution HT-1a it measures the amount of hypo being released from a print. It is a test of how fast washing is progressing. It really doesn't tell how much hypo or silver remains in the print. At least to me a not very useful test. On the other hand the ST-1 solution accurately shows how much silver remains in a print. Any coloration darker than a barely perceptible cream color shows insufficient fixing. THE TWO TESTS ARE NOT EQUIVALENT. It is possible, depending on how tightly thiosulfate is bound to the paper fibers, for the HT-1a test to give deceptive results.

Older copies of the Kodak Darkroom Guide have a series of swatches that give more accurate values for the amount of residual silver.
 
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miha

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I see no reason why a drop of sulphide toner would be any less reliable.