A Small Rant on Popular Opinion, Fact, and Film

Larry Bullis · Dec 28, 2008

People, including you and I, believe what they (we) want to believe or what they (usually unconsciously) construe to be in their best interest. Ask anyone who'e been a "whistleblower".

It is amazing how the mind will devise ever more complex workarounds to make everything seem OK despite ample evidence to the contrary. I've had some experience with this (I don't recommend it but sometimes it is necessary), and have seen people whom were considered to be friends actually lie under oath to protect their complacency. It is very easy to condemn it in others and very difficult if not impossible to see it in ourselves.

It would be great if we had any objectivity and proceeded according to logic. It is more likely, at least in my experience, that we each, to an extent that we can't imagine, invent the world we live in and pretend it's real.

Shelley-Ann · Dec 28, 2008

Interesting post, bowzart
Technically, there was nothing wrong with the salesman's argument. If he had put it in a more intelligent manner or a more customer-friendly manner (example: see post 19 with the added 'but I can order some for you if you like *big grin*) it may have been different.

Marco B · Dec 28, 2008

nsouto said:
Apparently, somewhere down the line someone forgot to tell these folks about "repeat business". You don't get repeat business with the p&s digital crowd, period.

I have to disagree a little here, you probably don't know how often digital camera's break down, it's a nightmare (and heaven) for shop owners. P&S in the analog eara tended to be relative robust, and generally did not break down after just half a year's usage or so.

Just imagine these conversations:

- Shop owner: Oh, your digital compact camera doesn't work anymore?

- Client: Yes, the lens doesn't come out.

- Sorry to hear that, do you still have warranty?

- No, it's 2 month's past warranty.

- Sorry to hear that, sending it back for repair costs $25,-, and research costs are $75,-. An average repair is $150,-. Our cheapest camera is currently on offer for $129,-. Do you still want it repaired?

- No thanks, I'll buy the new one!

Or this one:

- Client : my camera's battery is empty after just 10 shot's.

- Shop owner: Sorry to hear that, how old is the camera?

- Well, it's two years old.

- Oh, dead battery, you need to buy a new one, it will cost you $50.

Talking about "no repeat business"

Happens on a daily basis in every digital camera shop around the globe...

removed account4 · Dec 28, 2008

i went to my pharmacy the other day to buy dry plates
this is the conversation i had with the druggest

me: good day sir, i would like to buy some dry plates.

druggest: sorry, i don't sell many of those dry plates,
no one is using that stuff

me: what do you mean, 7months ago i bought some here, you had some on that shelf back there.

druggest: right, i don't sell much of that stuff, would you like to buy some roll film, or sheets of film instead, everyone uses that now?

i went down the street and bought my photo supplies from someone else ...

Shangheye · Dec 28, 2008

With the camera body as the source of resolution in digital technology Vs film for analog cameras, obselescence (spelling?) is the key part of the digital photography business model. If you believe that the long term future of the consumer led model is now under threat...then obselescence suddenly is not so profitable a model. Film cameras don't suffer that. The film is the source of the image and resolution. It is a REQUIREMENT to operate film cameras, and so are always going to be an attractive business regardless of economic environment. K

Removed Account · Dec 28, 2008

jnanian said:
actually it makes a lot of sense what the guy said.
he doesn't want to hang onto stock and maybe not sell it to
the few people who might buy it, seening that those few people are becoming fewer and fewer.

The reason it does not make sense was that the shop owner, by his own admission, consistently and regularly sold out of film. It wasn't sitting on the shelves, people were still buying it up (admittedly in the low quantities which were apparently on hand) and he blatantly refused to admit that people were buying it from him.

And yes, it would be nice if my local camera shops carried dry plates.

wogster · Dec 28, 2008

Marco B said:
I have to disagree a little here, you probably don't know how often digital camera's break down, it's a nightmare (and heaven) for shop owners. P&S in the analog eara tended to be relative robust, and generally did not break down after just half a year's usage or so.

Just imagine these conversations:

- Shop owner: Oh, your digital compact camera doesn't work anymore?

- Client: Yes, the lens doesn't come out.

- Sorry to hear that, do you still have warranty?

- No, it's 2 month's past warranty.

- Sorry to hear that, sending it back for repair costs $25,-, and research costs are $75,-. An average repair is $150,-. Our cheapest camera is currently on offer for $129,-. Do you still want it repaired?

- No thanks, I'll buy the new one!

Or this one:

- Client : my camera's battery is empty after just 10 shot's.

- Shop owner: Sorry to hear that, how old is the camera?

- Well, it's two years old.

- Oh, dead battery, you need to buy a new one, it will cost you $50.

Talking about "no repeat business"

Happens on a daily basis in every digital camera shop around the globe...

You forgot one scenario, and this is important for the P&S crowd:

- Shop owner: Oh, your digital compact camera doesn't work anymore?

- Client: Yes, the lens doesn't come out.

- Sorry to hear that, do you still have warranty?

- No, it's 2 month's past warranty.

- Sorry to hear that, sending it back for repair costs $25,-, and research costs are $75,-. An average repair is $150,-. Our cheapest camera is currently on offer for $129,-. Do you still want it repaired?

- No thanks, I'll just use the camera built into my cell phone from now on..:rolleyes:

As time goes on, the market for P&S digital cameras will start to shrink as cell phone cameras get better and better. They will not get good enough to replace even a low end DSLR, but will probably get to the point where they will replace the majority of P&S digitals except for the 40 or so people on the planet who do not have a cell phone. Still goes to show that the dealer who keeps a moderate supply of film, paper and chemistries, is going to be better off then the digital only shop.

Sirius Glass · Dec 28, 2008

Additional part of the dialog:

...
Me: But you always sell out of film. At full price. On the regular basis.
Laoban: Yes, but no one shoots film anymore.
Me: I shoot film and process it myself.
Laoban: But if you shoot digital you do not have to process film. Processing film is complicated and hard to do.
Me: Nah, processing film is so simple even you can learn to do it.

Twenty minutes later:
Laoban: Hey, you insulted me! Didn't you?

Steve

titrisol · Dec 28, 2008

I laughed my tail off. And the sad part is that happens almost everywhere.
From the people telling you that film X or Y is too contrasty or too flat to those trying to shove digital up your wazooo

iamzip · Dec 28, 2008

I agree, I don't think the shop owner is actually that stupid. It's either a ploy to try and sell digital, or he simply doesn't care enough (or isn't organized enough) to order the correct amount of film.

Paul Cocklin · Dec 28, 2008

Sirius Glass said:
...
Me: But you always sell out of film. At full price. On the regular basis.
Laoban: Yes, but no one shoots film anymore.
Me: I shoot film and process it myself.
Laoban: But if you shoot digital you do not have to process film. Processing film is complicated and hard to do.
Me: Nah, processing film is so simple even you can learn to do it.

Twenty minutes later:
Laoban: Hey, you insulted me! Didn't you?

Steve

Reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote, about a restaurant in New York, "...nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

mabman · Dec 28, 2008

My favourite local photo store has told me that Kodak's minimum film order level is prohibitive for smaller stores (not sure if it's per SKU/product or per category like colour neg, slide, or B&W). They don't stock Kodak slide film because of this (but do go through a decent amount of Kodak B&W and colour neg).

Not sure if that's the case everywhere, but that may be the real reason for the store owner's reluctance to restock. Apparently he is selling the stuff, but it may not be turning over quickly enough for his liking to shell out a large quantity of cash up front to restock.

So, this exchange does sound odd, but it may be justifiable to a small business owner who has to watch his cash flow.

removed account4 · Dec 28, 2008

it seems very obvious to me that the folks who are so down on the shopkeeper
have never come to the realization that analog photograph will soon become a niche market,
... the one time main street suppliers (like this guy )
won't be the ones supplying anymore ...

why should a shopkeeper to buy things to sell in a store,
if he has no idea if they will sell. if no one buys all the film you want him to
buy, will you purchase it all from him at full price when it is all out of date ?

gr82bart · Dec 28, 2008

mikebarger said:
Still his shop, and if he wants to promote digital, in whatever manner, it's his business.

Nobody said he was smart.

This is the unfortunate truth of it in a nutshell.

When I was in the BIG corporate world leading improvement initiatives, it absolutely flabbergasted me just how illogical and inefficient some processes can be. Now that I interact with more, but smaller clients - guess what? It's all there too. The fact is that there is any combination and complexity of illogical decisions, inefficient processes and ineffective strategies in any type of business. Sometimes the business has a product that overwhelms impediments and despite themselves, succeed, but most don't. Eventually they run into some form of demise. Business Darwinism at it's finest.

I was the other APUGer that asked Brian to post this here because, as someone else pointed, it is symptomatic of a greater 'filmism' that is going on the photographic community globally. The world is pushing digital. Like any other subtle but present -isms we all know it's there, but it's exteremly difficult to prove outside accedotal evidence and stories like these. This owner, rightly or wrongly, smartly or idiotically, has fallen into that marketing plan.

Regards, Art.

Maris · Dec 28, 2008

When will the corporations and the retailers learn that the big money, the repeat money, in photography comes from "hard copy"? Photographic cameras and lenses are just one-offs but those very gadgets mandate a continuing investment in picture making materials. Real physical pictures made of valuable materials, silver for example, or platinum, are irreducibly expensive.

And remember, actual photography, the art that makes pictures out of light sensitive materials, exists ONLY as hard copy.

Electronic picture making, digital or analogue, is virtually free of charge at the taking stage and if monitor presentation is chosen the display stage is free too. There is nothing for the manufacturers or retailers here beyond the sale of the original gizmo.

Since this thread started as a rant I'll throw in a kicker. I reckon it's time "digital photography" was taken to court in front of the world. Digital picture making, whatever it's virtues, is simply not photography and it is a continuing swindle to imply that it is. The whole case may cost a few million but it will have to be won only once. And Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji could easily afford it particularly if they woke up to the deep value of what they still have. It's not too late.

Rolex, Louis Vuitton, and other premium names defend their status in the courts, and win. The French champagne industry, after a hundred years of foreign rip-offs, has finally and successfully defended the name "Champagne" in the courts. For all of the 20th century one could buy "Australian Champagne". But no longer. It never really truly was Champagne just as digital pictures were never really Photography.

2F/2F · Dec 28, 2008

BrianPhotog said:
Freestyle doesn't ship overseas (unless you are in the military) and I'm not going to bug my family to go into downtown and get something for me.

However, when I'm back in the LA area visiting them this April I will make sure to stop by.

If anyone overseas runs into this problem, I would be glad to pick up your prepaid order for you, and then ship it to you. I make a Freestyle run about once every few months (and go to Samy's Pasadena in between Freestyle runs). Keep in mind that overseas shipping is expensive, and it will be up to you to decide whether the cost of shipping and long shipping time of sensitized materials is worth it, but if you decide that it is, the offer stands to anyone on this site. I am fortunate to be 30 minutes from Freestyle and 5 minutes from Samy's, but I know most people are not!

"I have to cautiously disagree on one level. I don't advocate supporting "small shops" who don't carry film, but I would advocate supporting more than one on-line source for analog products. Otherwise, we could have another J&C down the road ...

PS: not bashing Freestyle - just got a big order from them!"

Yes, I was too specific. I meant to support the truly dedicated film resources as opposed to a camera shop like the one in the OP.

rossawilson1 · Dec 28, 2008

I think the genius with digital is the camera for a lot of people becomes the repeat business.

These little compacts have got to be a lot more sensitive to ware than their film counterparts for a start, so there's some more custom.. Add to that the desire factor of a newer, faster, better, brighter, etc etc camera, you're going to get a hell of a lot more people replacing cameras that don't need replacing.. There are few reasons to upgrade a film compact by comparison. When did your missus ever care about a camera so much before digital? Black and "sexy" cameras are now almost becoming as disposable as fashion accessories.

Whilst you'll get people using the same digi for years and years, batteries may become hard to find providing the camera will actually last that long in the first place. As long as marketing can keep coming up with upgrades for the new models (and they do this with colour now) digi cameras themselves will bring the customers back.

nsouto · Dec 28, 2008

Marco B said:
I have to disagree a little here, you probably don't know how often digital camera's break down, it's a nightmare (and heaven) for shop owners. P&S in the analog eara tended to be relative robust, and generally did not break down after just half a year's usage or so.

I must admit I've been somewhat immune to this: my current digital p&s - mostly used by my daughter - is a Fuji f31fd: they are built like a tank and just don't break down. Then again, it's 'only' a 6mp one...
But I know exactly what you mean: my previous dp&s was an absolute disaster and cost me a bundle, back in 1999.
While my film p&s cameras still work, and without a single hitch. Even got a couple of new Oly Stylus ones recently!

wogster · Dec 28, 2008

Maris said:
When will the corporations and the retailers learn that the big money, the repeat money, in photography comes from "hard copy"? Photographic cameras and lenses are just one-offs but those very gadgets mandate a continuing investment in picture making materials. Real physical pictures made of valuable materials, silver for example, or platinum, are irreducibly expensive.

And remember, actual photography, the art that makes pictures out of light sensitive materials, exists ONLY as hard copy.

Electronic picture making, digital or analogue, is virtually free of charge at the taking stage and if monitor presentation is chosen the display stage is free too. There is nothing for the manufacturers or retailers here beyond the sale of the original gizmo.

Since this thread started as a rant I'll throw in a kicker. I reckon it's time "digital photography" was taken to court in front of the world. Digital picture making, whatever it's virtues, is simply not photography and it is a continuing swindle to imply that it is. The whole case may cost a few million but it will have to be won only once. And Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji could easily afford it particularly if they woke up to the deep value of what they still have. It's not too late.

Rolex, Louis Vuitton, and other premium names defend their status in the courts, and win. The French champagne industry, after a hundred years of foreign rip-offs, has finally and successfully defended the name "Champagne" in the courts. For all of the 20th century one could buy "Australian Champagne". But no longer. It never really truly was Champagne just as digital pictures were never really Photography.

The photograph is the end process, the piece of paper with an image on it, the question becomes, what method is used to get there. Right now there are 5 processes, using silver and chemistry only, there is a completely electronic/digital process to ink print, digital capture to chemical print, silver capture to digital processing and ink print, silver capture to digital processing to silver print. The question is, if the resulting photograph is what you want, then does it really matter how you got there.

Few people use the term digital photograph, they use the term digital image, and digital imaging rather then digital photography. So your court challenge may not get very far.

I think the majority of the population don't really care, how you get to the print, and what method is used to produce it, they only care that it looks nice.

BrianPhotog · Dec 28, 2008

mikebarger said:
I guess I don't see why anyone would be upset with an individual that has invested his money in a shop and runs it the way he wants to. This doesn't look like to big of a deal.

If you don't think his business plan is right for the location, start your own shop or by the HP5 next door.

Mike

I was frustrated by his logic. And I did buy the HP5+ next door.

Reading through this response thread has made my morning.

PHOTOTONE · Dec 28, 2008

What you folks may not be aware of, is that Kodak has virtually stopped selling small product orders to individual shops, rather they have appointed several jobbers who sell to small shops. Unique Photo is one of these, I wouldn't be surprised if B&H isn't one also. So in all likelihood your store owner would have to order film from the same place you can order from yourself.

While the OP's store owners logic seems daffy, in truth he may need to make a substantial order from his jobber. (Minimum order), and he just doesn't have the need to place this order whenever he runs out of Tri-X. He seems unwilling to "gamble" on film.

THardy · Dec 28, 2008

The shopkeeper failed to tell you that a (one) hobbyist comes in from time to time and buys the three or four rolls he keeps on the shelves for months.

So all the things he told you were true.

wogster · Dec 28, 2008

PHOTOTONE said:
What you folks may not be aware of, is that Kodak has virtually stopped selling small product orders to individual shops, rather they have appointed several jobbers who sell to small shops. Unique Photo is one of these, I wouldn't be surprised if B&H isn't one also. So in all likelihood your store owner would have to order film from the same place you can order from yourself.

While the OP's store owners logic seems daffy, in truth he may need to make a substantial order from his jobber. (Minimum order), and he just doesn't have the need to place this order whenever he runs out of Tri-X. He seems unwilling to "gamble" on film.

I think where it defies logic is that if your jobber requires you to order X amount, say 5 bricks, so you order 5 bricks, and run out after 5 months, then you wait another month and order another 5 bricks, would seem to be more logical, that if your running out, you would order an extra brick, so that your supply is getting near zero about the time your next supply comes in.

BrianPhotog · Dec 28, 2008

THardy said:
The shopkeeper failed to tell you that a (one) hobbyist comes in from time to time and buys the three or four rolls he keeps on the shelves for months.

So all the things he told you were true.

Actually, it's mostly due to students. Toward the end and beginning of each term, students will buy a bunch of b&w film and chems. It's not just one guy hording.

And his "sell out" rate is more rapid then that.

BrianPhotog · Dec 28, 2008

wogster said:
I think where it defies logic is that if your jobber requires you to order X amount, say 5 bricks, so you order 5 bricks, and run out after 5 months, then you wait another month and order another 5 bricks, would seem to be more logical, that if your running out, you would order an extra brick, so that your supply is getting near zero about the time your next supply comes in.

Exactly, especially since the shelf life of the film far exceeds that rate at which he's selling out.

A Small Rant on Popular Opinion, Fact, and Film

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