A pyro beginner...

Ara Ghajanian · Apr 10, 2006

I've never used anything like this stuff and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on where to start. I have a copy of the Film Developers Cookbook if that helps. I'm not capable of mixing my own chemical formulas, so if anyone knows of a packaged version available, please let me know. Any advice would be extremely helpful.
Ara

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 10, 2006

You can order kits from photoformulary.com. If you're starting with 35mm or 6x6, I'd try PMK for the grain masking effect. If you like it, it's not hard to experiment with your own formulas. You can get bulk chemicals from photoformulary.com or artcraftchemicals.com or other suppliers, a scale from www.balances.com, a few spare bottles, and you're good to go.

jim appleyard · Apr 10, 2006

You can also go here:http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/

They'll make any kit you like and have the PMK kit in stock, premade.

Making you own homebrew is easy! All you ned is a set of table/teaspoons and a graduate to hold 1 liter. I would think in Providence, RI, you would have several $ stores. That's where I got mine. I've been playing Evil Scientist ever since!

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 10, 2006

You can get the pre-weighed Pyrocat HD kit from Photographers Formulary or Artcraft Chemicals - both urls have been cited above so I won't repeat. The pre-weighed kits are VERY easy to mix... just follow the directions- open the packets and dump them into the required quantity of distilled water in order, stirring until dissolved before adding the next chem. No measuring and weighing, and no handling of raw chemistry required. If you're still concerned, get the pre-mixed liquid PMK Pyro developer from Photographers' Formulary. B&H Photo usually stocks it, if you have a jones on for instant gratification.

PMK or Pyrocat HD are the most accessible, easiest to use varieties to start with. The standard working dilution for PMK is 1:2:100, and the standard for Pyrocat HD is 2:2:100. For suggested development times and temperatures, look up your favorite film on the Massive Development Chart (www.digitaltruth.com).

kaiyen · Apr 10, 2006

<hijack>
Truly a quick reply - one recommendation for PMK for 35mm and 6x6, and I've heard a lot about Pyrocat. Why one or the other? There has be a link somewhere to a comparison, right?

</hijack>
allan

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 10, 2006

kaiyen said:
<hijack>
Truly a quick reply - one recommendation for PMK for 35mm and 6x6, and I've heard a lot about Pyrocat. Why one or the other? There has be a link somewhere to a comparison, right?

</hijack>
allan

One of the reasons for Pyrocat vs PMK is that Pyrocat does much better with rotary processing. If you are using a Jobo or Unicolor drum to process your film, Pyrocat is much preferred. If you are agitating manually, PMK is a perfectly good way to go. There are lots of discussions on this forum about Pyrocat and its benefits - do a quick search to find them.

Jim Noel · Apr 10, 2006

If you are using 35mm, roll film, or small sheet film and intend to enlarge the negatives, pyrocat HD produces significantly less overall stain than PMK or Rollo Pyro thus providing considerably shorter printing times.

Jim

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 10, 2006

Jim Noel said:
If you are using 35mm, roll film, or small sheet film and intend to enlarge the negatives, pyrocat HD produces significantly less overall stain than PMK or Rollo Pyro thus providing considerably shorter printing times.

Jim

Jim- I shoot all sizes between 35mm and 4x5 for enlargement. I have put a fair number of sheets of 4x5 through PMK pyro, and had no major problems with long exposure times. There is a difference, yes... I get 15-20 second exposures with Pyrocat, and 20-30 second exposures with PMK, at the same aperture.

PhotoJim · Apr 10, 2006

PMK is a good formula. I've been using it for about five years and I'm very pleased with it.

I assume when you say "pyro" that you mean pyrogallol (which is what is usually meant when photographers say "pyro"). PMK contains pyrogallol as well as metol as developing agents. Pyrocat HD uses pyrocatechin (often referred to as catechol) which is somewhat similar but distinct from pyrogallol. It isn't as commonly used but it has some advantages.

PMK is a good formula to start with because of its excellent keeping properties. The stock solution will keep for years. Pyrocat is a little easier to use (it isn't as fussy about agitation and it works better for rotary processing) but the stock solutions have a much shorter life. It's worth trying both eventually.

Pyrogallol and pyrocatechin are toxic so don't contact the chemical with your bare fingers and wear waterproof gloves when you develop film with these chemicals. I don't know if that's absolutely necessary but I figure that taking a chance isn't needed. Wearing gloves is pretty simple.

Robert Brummitt · Apr 10, 2006

I've always used Wimberleys WD2D+ for my roll film and rollo pyro for my sheet film. WD2D is a bit simpler to use then PMK. It has one less step then PMK or Rollo. It's also a bit faster in film speed and processing times.
If you know anyone who is using a pyro developer? Ask them to process a roll or two of yours or you can time to buy small batches of PMK and WD2D to play.

noseoil · Apr 10, 2006

PMK's grain masking in small film formats is a good choice, but it does have one drawback which hasn't been addressed here. Due to the presence of "general stain," shadow values will be muddy or murky. This isn't an issue in some settings, but in general pyrocat-hd is much better in this respect. The trade off is that PMK can yield a smoother look than pyrocat in smaller films, because the stain adds to density values. This is a general comment and different films will still act in their own fashion. A fast, coarse grain film will still have larger grain than a slow, fine grained film. tim

Claire Senft · Apr 10, 2006

Ara if you spend 30-50 on a scale you will find out that you are capable of mixing your own chemicals and that it is easiy, enjoyable and, with careful shopping ,extremely economical.

vet173 · Apr 10, 2006

If you are going to try PMK, I would recomend NOT doing the second dip in the developer.

PhotoJim · Apr 10, 2006

vet173 said:
If you are going to try PMK, I would recomend NOT doing the second dip in the developer.

I agree, particularly if you are using an all-alkaline process (running water stop, alkaline fixer). I've never developed PMK with acid fixer so I can't comment on whether the afterbath helps there.

Ken Lee · Apr 10, 2006

kaiyen said:
Why one or the other? There has be a link somewhere to a comparison, right?

Here is a good place to start. http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

The best thing to do is take a few identical photos (rolls or sheets) and process them differently. My reading and experience led me to Pyrocat HD. It's simple, affordable, and is backed by some rather compelling and articulate research.

I have recently tested the Pyrocat P variation, and found it to work quite nicely also.

kaiyen · Apr 10, 2006

<hijack>
Thanks guys
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allan

JBrunner · Apr 10, 2006

Couple of notes about Pyro- The water stops and alkaline fixer as mentioned are used, as acid is said to bleach out the stain, as I understand it. It seems to be the general recomendation, so that what I use.

I use Pyrocat HD premixed from PF and TF4 fixer, also from PF. I use the premix because its easy, and Id rather be developing and printing than mixing chemicals. For this trade off in convenience, I pay more money for my developer. Some people truly enjoy making things from scratch, but I am just not one of them.

blackmelas · Apr 11, 2006

I have also seen it in print that the pyrocatechin developers (Prescysol and Pyrocat) impart a brown stain that is beneficial when printing on VC papers. The 'green' stain given by pyrogallol developers is supposed in some situations to muddy the shadows of VC and is better in general for graded papers. I played ( I cannot say I very sysematic about it) with PMK for a little before choosing Prescysol which has become a favorite developer for nearly all films except for HP5+. Prescysol is available from PF and http://www.monochromephotography.com/

Now that I think of it, it was Barry Thornton's Edge of Darkness that describes the effects of the stain color on VC and graded papers.
Best regards,
James

marktweedie · Apr 15, 2006

blackmelas said:
I played ( I cannot say I very sysematic about it) with PMK for a little before choosing Prescysol which has become a favorite developer for nearly all films except for HP5+.

I get fantastic results with HP5+, James. What makes you like it less with Prescysol than other films? It does seem to stain more than, say, FP4+ but the negs are beautifullly graded tonally and a breeze to print.
Mark

PhotoJim · Apr 15, 2006

The point about the amount of stain is a good one. One of my favourite films in PMK is Pan-F Plus. The amount of stain is disappointing (I've never had negatives with this film that actually looked good to my eye ) but the negatives print deliciously. No matter what staining developer you use, always print before you throw away the negatives. You might be surprised.

lee · Apr 15, 2006

wrt stain and acid fix I have always used Kodak Rapid Fix without the hardner. I never saw a stain reduction with either PMK or Pyrocat HD. I used PMK and Hp5 for about 10 years in largeformatt and have been using Pyrocat HD, which I think is a much better developer btw.

lee\c

Tom Hoskinson · Apr 15, 2006

PhotoJim said:
PMK is a good formula to start with because of its excellent keeping properties. The stock solution will keep for years. Pyrocat is a little easier to use (it isn't as fussy about agitation and it works better for rotary processing) but the stock solutions have a much shorter life...

Mixed in water, the Pyrocat A stock solution lasts about 7 months to a year. Mixed in Propylene Glycol (which is the way I mix it) the Pyrocat A stock solution will last for years.

The Pyrocat B solution is Potassium Carbonate (or Sodium Carbonate) and water. It has a long shelf life.

dancqu · Apr 15, 2006

lee said:
wrt stain and acid fix I have always used Kodak Rapid Fix
without the hardner. I never saw a stain reduction with
either PMK or Pyrocat HD.

Maybe not always. Some comparisons must have been
made along the way. Ever tried a spoon full or two of
unadulterated anhydrous sodium thiosulfate? Dan

blackmelas · Apr 17, 2006

marktweedie said:
I get fantastic results with HP5+, James. What makes you like it less with Prescysol than other films? It does seem to stain more than, say, FP4+ but the negs are beautifullly graded tonally and a breeze to print.
Mark

Hi Mark,
Using Prescysol for HP5+ shot in normal or low constrast situations to print on a condenser enlarger I get a flat results. While there is good detail in the shadows, the midtones are too low and even muddy for my tastes. Now if I drop the same HP5+ negative in ID-11 or Perceptol it springs to life. I wouldn't, however, if I came upon a high contrast scene, hesitate to shoot an extra neg to try the prescysol in these conditions. I love HP5+ but I guess I just haven't been able to make the combo work for me.
Best regards,
James

Ara Ghajanian · Apr 17, 2006

Thanks for all the responses so far. Can anyone recommend a book that deals with this topic in depth?
Ara

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