A persons first TLR

guangong · Aug 7, 2019

Around 1960 I had a Minolta Autocord. Great lens. The weak point of this camera is the design of the focusing mechanism, which is not very durable. Rolleiflex design is superior to all others...even the copycats. No experience with other brands, but at the time did not like the feel of Mamiya, so my opinion is subjective. I would save up for a Rolleiflex.
A versatile, dependable camera.

Grim Tuesday · Aug 7, 2019

Autocord focusing mechanism can break easily if forced or mishandled but I don't think it's in much danger of spontaneously breaking. One good thing about the autocords is that they were consumer cameras and unlikely to be worn out in the same way a Rolleiflex used by a pro might be.

wjlapier · Aug 7, 2019

Something I noticed using several Mamiya TLRs vs Rolleicord and Minoltas--no obvious infinity focus on the Mamiya's. The three TLRs I own ( Rolleicord III and Vb, and Minolta Autocord LMX ) all have an infinity stop on the knob or lever.

I haven't owned a Rolleiflex but I might someday. I took my three TLRs to Montana for a vacation and really enjoyed using them. Many times I realized I didn't need to figure out where infinity focus was. That was a nice feature for me. Having a nice bright viewfinder with a split image screen helps me for closer than infinity focus.

I'd look for one that was CLA'd by someone who knows what they are doing. My 'cord III was CLA'd by Mark Hansen. Autocord by Karl Bryan. The Vb didn't need a CLA.

StepheKoontz · Aug 7, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
In order of screen brightness: Yashicas = Mamiya C330 > Autocord = Mamiya C220 > Rolleiflex > Rolleicord

Agree and highly recommend a screen replacement for any Rollei you plan to use. 'Cords are REALLY dim with even darker corners even in bright daylight.

CMoore · Aug 7, 2019

Sorry if this is getting old, but my Parents (RIP) would be upset with me if i did not.

..... Thanks Again for the suggestions and info.

Sgore · Aug 7, 2019

The camera I grab when I walk out the door is a Rolleiflx 2.8, mostly because that's what I have. I was able to buy a Yashica MAT 124G the other day for stupid cheap, so I did. It's a really nice camera, lighter and a little more nimble than the Rolleiflex. I gave it to a friend who has been away from photography for a few years after having her cameras stolen, but frankly I wish I had kept it. I would buy another in a heartbeat if I could get it for a reasonable price. I've handled a couple of the Mamiya TLRs and though they are nice, they are big and relatively heavy, which kind of goes against why I use a TLR

Alan Gales · Aug 7, 2019

guangong said:
Around 1960 I had a Minolta Autocord. Great lens. The weak point of this camera is the design of the focusing mechanism, which is not very durable. Rolleiflex design is superior to all others...even the copycats. No experience with other brands, but at the time did not like the feel of Mamiya, so my opinion is subjective. I would save up for a Rolleiflex.
A versatile, dependable camera.

The metal that the Autocord focussing lever is made out of is brittle like you mentioned. If the lubricant gets gummed up and you force it then it can break. If you check eBay there are plenty with broken levers. There are also a lot of them with the original lever still working because owners had them occasionally CLA'd like you would any other TLR. If you did break a lever then I've seen replacement levers for sale on eBay made with a more robust material. Of course they are so cheap that you might just buy another camera. I own a Mamiya C220f but I've played with an Autocord. I found the Autocord focussing lever is a joy to use in practice.

For the OP. I'd recommend buying one of the less expensive cameras like the Autocord, Rolleicord or Yashica. Try it out and see how you like it. If you do then you can always later pony up and buy a Rolleiflex if you want one. Sell the first camera for near what you paid or keep it for times when you are afraid to take out an expensive camera.

The Mamiya's are nice if you need interchangeable lenses. They are larger and heavier though. I bought a C220f. It is lighter than the C330 series and being an "f" it's focussing screen is just as bright as the latest C330s model.

kevs · Aug 7, 2019

My first TLR was a Russian-made Lubitel 166B. I think I paid about £22 for it brand new. I loved it but the shutter broke a year or so later, so that went in the dustbin. I wish I'd kept it now; Lomography sell them new for nearly £300!

My next one was a nice Yashica 635, which I still have. It can be converted to 35mm with an adapter, which I also have. A simple 'hack' allows 35mm film to be exposed with a 60mm x 35mm over the perfs. The Yashica 124G is also a nice camera, a little tighter but still sturdy.

Here's a buyer's / collector's guide to Yashica TLRs:
http://www.yashicatlr.com/66ModelsPage7.html#yashicamat124b

For a buying guide, I agree with Alan above; buy a cheapie to play with and see if you like it. TLRs take a bit of getting used to if you're accustomed to pentaprisms or direct viewfinders; everything is laterally reversed. There's also parallax to be considered; you don't see exactly what you get in the viewfinder, which can be important if you're doing close-up work. Don't buy a new Lubitel from Lomography unless you want an expensive plastic toy with a flimsy shutter, a triplet lens and a Fresnel viewing screen!

Theo Sulphate · Aug 7, 2019

CMoore said:
... i am pretty much a 35mm SLR guy. Yes, they DID make a lot of those, but they are pretty much all the "Same". ... To me, the "look down into", TLR, is a much more mysterious camera. ...

Not knowing which SLR you may have, it may be possible to get a mild sense of the waist-level finder experience if the prism on your SLR can be removed.

CMoore · Aug 7, 2019

Alan Gales said:
.
For the OP. I'd recommend buying one of the less expensive cameras like the Autocord, Rolleicord or Yashica. Try it out and see how you like it. If you do then you can always later pony up and buy a Rolleiflex if you want one. Sell the first camera for near what you paid or keep it for times when you are afraid to take out an expensive camera.

The Mamiya's are nice if you need interchangeable lenses. They are larger and heavier though. I bought a C220f. It is lighter than the C330 series and being an "f" it's focussing screen is just as bright as the latest C330s model.

Thank You -
These are some of the "Nuances" i was hoping to learn from you Guys/Gals.
To be honest, as of right now, i think i am leaning toward the Mamiya 220.

Anything further you want to say about those models would be appreciated.
For example, your mentioned the "f".....it looks like there was also a "Pro" or "Professional". Do you have much experience with the different iterations of the 220.?
Thanks Again

Alan Gales · Aug 7, 2019

CMoore said:
Thank You -
These are some of the "Nuances" i was hoping to learn from you Guys/Gals.
To be honest, as of right now, i think i am leaning toward the Mamiya 220.

Anything further you want to say about those models would be appreciated.
For example, your mentioned the "f".....it looks like there was also a "Pro" or "Professional". Do you have much experience with the different iterations of the 220.?
Thanks Again

I first bought a C220 and liked it. I later read that the C220f had a brighter focussing screen than the original so I bought one of them to compare. The f's focussing screen is indeed a bit brighter and helps me when shooting indoors.

The original says Professional on the bottom of the camera the "f" version says Professional f. The f has more plastic parts than the original. I've never heard of any problems due to the plastic though. The other thing is that instead of a winding crank to advance the film you get a winding knob. I liked the crank a bit better but it really doesn't make much difference to me. The brighter screen does help indoors though.

As for weight, the C220's weigh about the same as a Hasselblad 500/cm with 80mm lens attached. I used to own one of those too. Other brands of TLR's are smaller and lighter which adds to their popularity. If you need to change lenses then I recommend the Mamiya cameras, otherwise I'd get one of the lighter cameras.

Grim Tuesday · Aug 7, 2019

Alan Gales said:
I first bought a C220 and liked it. I later read that the C220f had a brighter focussing screen than the original so I bought one of them to compare. The f's focussing screen is indeed a bit brighter and helps me when shooting indoors.

The original says Professional on the bottom of the camera the "f" version says Professional f. The f has more plastic parts than the original. I've never heard of any problems due to the plastic though. The other thing is that instead of a winding crank to advance the film you get a winding knob. I liked the crank a bit better but it really doesn't make much difference to me. The brighter screen does help indoors though.

As for weight, the C220's weigh about the same as a Hasselblad 500/cm with 80mm lens attached. I used to own one of those too. Other brands of TLR's are smaller and lighter which adds to their popularity.

To be fair to the C220s, it is the lightest medium format camera with interchangeable lenses that costs less than a Hasselblad. Only other ones I can think of are Mamiya 6, Mamiya 7 and Bronica RF. All which cost astronomically more. And it has better lenses than all other TLRs save the Rollei Planar, which while excellent may not be the rendering you like the most. It seems to me that the Mamiya TLR lenses were optimized for having good bokeh compared to their peers, especially the 80 and 105DS

Ko.Fe. · Aug 8, 2019

I had bunch of Mats and one of the first Yashica TLRs. They are OK.
I had Lubitel-2, it was fun after lens was calibrated.
I had Mamiya and it was mammoth.
And I had Rolleicord. Best TLR to take with and print pictures from. It has no flex status, but prints are still superior to any Japanese TLR.

Luckless · Aug 8, 2019

Alan Gales said:
The other thing is that instead of a winding crank to advance the film you get a winding knob. I liked the crank a bit better but it really doesn't make much difference to me.

And here I am thinking of swapping the crank handle of my C330f for a large knob... I dislike the crank handled's tendency to flop and rattle a bit, and it does have a habit of snagging on my bag a bit more than the knob on my Rolleicord.

But I stand by my view that there is only so much one can learn from other's opinion's on gear. Eventually you have to roll the dice and get some of it in your own hands to form your own opinion.

Alan Gales · Aug 8, 2019

Luckless said:
And here I am thinking of swapping the crank handle of my C330f for a large knob... I dislike the crank handled's tendency to flop and rattle a bit, and it does have a habit of snagging on my bag a bit more than the knob on my Rolleicord.

But I stand by my view that there is only so much one can learn from other's opinion's on gear. Eventually you have to roll the dice and get some of it in your own hands to form your own opinion.

I completely agree about opinions. Sometimes people point out things that you never even considered. In the end though there is nothing like shooting a camera for a month or two to see what you think about it yourself.

I know some people don't like the hassle but I don't mind buying a used camera or lens and trying it out to see what I think. If it's not for me then I then sell it on eBay. If you buy right then you will get most if not all your money back if you later sell. If I lose a couple of dollars then I consider it a very cheap rental fee.

grahamp · Aug 8, 2019

General camera/lens buying:

Research for yourself if possible. Know what you are buying. Only you can decide what is right for you.
Have a budget. It is easier to set a budget when the object is still theoretical!

Is the lens clear and unscratched?
Does the shutter and diaphragm work at all settings?
Is the finder clear and unblemished?
Is the film chamber clean and undamaged?
Does the back close properly and evenly?
If there is a light meter, does it track a known good meter at high and low levels?
Does the focus appear to match the scale?
Are there signs of damaged screws or other poor repairs?

If it does not pass the first round, pass.

TheRook · Aug 9, 2019

I have two TLR cameras - a Ciro-Flex and a Yashica Mat124. The Yashica is easier to operate, particularly in regards to the frame advance procedure. But the Ciro-Flex is a lot of fun and takes decent photos too. I like to alternate between the two cameras.

hsandler · Aug 9, 2019

Another mid range TLR to consider is the Ricoh Diacord with 4-element Rikenon lens. These tend to go for a bit less than Autocords, but are not quite as plentiful on the used market. Every one that I've had has had really good quality leatherette that stays glued, unlike the Autocord leatherette that flakes off easily. In my opinion, the ergonomics of the Diacord focus levers are the best. https://www.filmshooterscollective....f-the-humble-ricoh-diacord-howard-sandler-8-3

Dennis-B · Aug 9, 2019

I started with the Minolta Autocord. I was in the Navy, needed a TLR to do some weddings, and didn't have a lot of cash. It served me very well, and I paid for it in about 3 months.

Next, I traded the Autocord for a Yashica 635. It worked nicely, although the 35mm adapter was a pain. I then traded it for a Yashica D model. It really worked well for weddings. It was virtually useless for head-and-shoulders portraits. After that, I stayed with Yashica by way of a MAT-124. It worked well, but I was still using two different cameras in the studio.

I finally tired of the constant changes, and went to a Mamiya C220f, and used interchangeable lenses much to my satisfaction. The crops were easy, and a lot of customers liked and bought 8x8 and 10x10 portraits. It also worked well for weddings. I liked it so much, that I invested in a Mamiya C330f; finally retiring it when I gave up my portrait and wedding business. Last year I bought a C330s, just so I could shoot a good TLR again. It's still a great platform, although not as sleek as my Hasselblad 500 C/M and a Bronica SQ.

Cholentpot · Aug 9, 2019

I've got and still use my Richoflex VII and Lubitel 2. Sure I'd like to upgrade but both of these are capable and give me the look I'm striving for. The Richoflex tends to have dark corners but I have solid copy of a Lubitel.

TLRs got me started into photography. I'm still waiting for a decent digital one.

I had to take this apart, scrape off the old grease and re-calibrate. Works fine now. Fun little box made for very slow films and very bright days.

CMoore · Aug 10, 2019

In the scheme of things....... does THIS seem like a decent camera for the price.?
Thank You

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-C22...223601887218?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Dan Daniel · Aug 10, 2019

CMoore said:
In the scheme of things....... does THIS seem like a decent camera for the price.?
Thank You

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-C22...223601887218?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

I don't know, but the 10.5cm lens is a slight telephoto. 75 or 80 are generally considered 'normal' for 6x6. I know you are new to this, so just want to make sure you know that. I guess I would see the 10.5 as a nice couples portrait lens?

Dennis-B · Aug 10, 2019

CMoore said:
In the scheme of things....... does THIS seem like a decent camera for the price.?
Thank You

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-C22...223601887218?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

It looks like it's in wonderful condition.

It does have an older 105mm lens, which is a bit of a telephoto. If you're looking for "normal" an 80mm f2.8 lens is better. It also has the older Seikosha shutter. The newer "black" lenses are probably a better bet. The later lenses have better coatings, and the lens on this camera is identified as 10.5 cm, and earlier single coat on one element lens.

There's a local dealer in Waterford, Mi, which has several Mamiya C330's for just a few dollars more than the C220 from Japan. His C330 has a newer "blue dot" 80mm lens.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-C33...:dmYAAOSwOZBdKKdB:sc:USPSPriority!48126!US!-1

I've bought from this dealer before, and he used to be a regional sales manager for Mamiya USA. He sells great products, and backs up everything. In fact, I bought my C330s from him.

CMoore · Aug 10, 2019

Thanks for the info.
If a body is in good shape (any body, not just this one) and had a decent lens, it thought i would go ahead an buy it, and look for another lens (either long or short) later.
Then again, i do not know what these lens sell for, and i do not know if one focal length is harder to find or more expensive than another.
Maybe it is better to buy a body with a "Normal" focal length lens and look for some length later.?

MattKing · Aug 10, 2019

The 105mm lens pairs well with the 55mm lens, if you are looking for a 2 lens setup.
That particular one is fairly old though, and as the shutters are built into each lens, newer lenses mean newer shutters, which is relevant to any maintenance issues.
After using these cameras for years, including four different focal lengths, I've settled on a 65mm and 135mm lens kit. But that is because I tend to use moderate wide angles as my "standard" lens.

A persons first TLR

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