A persons first TLR

Several people have asked, so.......if i had to put a label on what the camera will be used for -
Portraits
and
"Street Photography"

Between Rolleiflex, Yashica and Mamiya...... it is about impossible to know where to start and what to or not to buy.
Every time one comes up for sale... there is a C220 in the classifieds now... i am at a loss to know if i should purchase a camera or not.
Is there a general "Guide" to buying, or to know what to look for when getting one of these cameras.?
Even if it was just ONE Brand.
I am not talking about buying The Best or The Cheapest..... but just a guide, so that if i do buy a TLR, it will be a reasonable choice and i will have a camera that i can hold onto for awhile and not be sorry or have regrets about buying it.

Am i as clear as mud.?

If it were Ebay, i would just ASK you guys. But when it involves cameras in the classifieds on APUG, i do not want to put anybody on the spot, or ruin a sale for somebody that might actually be selling a decent unit.

Thank You

First, you can send a personal message to people. If you are worried about doing public questions, try that with a seller?

Second, say a bit about what you want from your camera. What do you think you will be shooting, etc. This helps people respond to your needs, not our needs. It might even be that there are other cameras that will serve your needs better. I doubt it since a TLR is the greatest bestest camera ever made and anyone using a different camera is just foolish.

Which gets to the third point, we are all different. Listen, learn, and pay attention to what makes sense for you, not for others.

Fourth, don't dither too much. I'd add the Minolta Autocord and Rolleicord to your list but you've got the main players at the level of 'real' cameras. Any one of them, or a few others, will do you well if they are in good condition. Just get one after a few minutes/days/weeks of hemming and hawing. You won't really know until you start using them.

For buying a used Rolleiflex :

The Wonderful World of Rolleiflex TLR Photography: Buying a Used Rolleiflex TLR
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explor...-tlr-photography-buying-a-used-rolleiflex-tlr
and
Rolleiflex buying guide
https://www.filmshooterscollective.com/analog-film-photography-blog/rolleiflex-buying-guide-1-11

For Mamiya TLRs G. Patterson's site is a must - http://gapatterson.org/mfaq.html
A site espacially for the C330 - http://www.photographersgarden.com/mamiya-c330/

Some useful Autocord details : https://fredmath.wixsite.com/minolta-autocord-en/home

Thanks for the links.......

The Yashica 124 was an easy way to start for me. Robust little camera, simple to use, very nice images.

If you're trying to decide what to go with, then i think it is very important to sit down and describe what you're trying to achieve.

The Mamiya TLRs are kind of a splinter group from all the other TLRs, and don't fit all that 'nicely' with them in my mind. Being heavier and a bit bulkier for the most part than other options, but they do come with several additional options that other TLRs don't have. [Namely, options on lenses to use, rather than a single fixed one, and built in bellows focus to avoid running into minimum focus distances for the most part. At least till you dive right into slightly awkward macro work.]

CMoore said:

Between Rolleiflex, Yashica and Mamiya...... it is about impossible to know where to start and what to or not to buy.

Click to expand...

Years ago, when I needed to buy my first medium format camera, I decided on a TLR instead of an SLR because I did not like the operational noise level of the medium format SLR.

The Rolleiflex, the Yashica and the Mamiya TLR cameras were the three I considered.

One photographer at the newspaper where I worked used a Mamiya C33. He complained about how often his camera broke and needed repair.

Another photographer at the newspaper where I worked used a Rolleiflex. The Rolleiflex was a fine camera but it was way out of my price range.

A photographer who worked for a competing newspaper, used a Yashica TLR. Her philosophy was to use it until it broke and then replace it with a new one. She claimed that her method was less expensive than repairing a Rolleiflex.

Unlike the three photographers I knew, I needed the TLR not for newspaper reportage but for shooting weddings, portraits, and product shots. I decided on the Mamiya C22 with an 80mm normal lens, a 55mm wide angle lens, and a 180mm portrait lens. I later purchased a Mamiya C220 as a second body. By avoiding the C33 and C330 Mamiya automatic bodies, I think I avoided the repair problems my colleague had with his C33.

CMoore said:

Between Rolleiflex, Yashica and Mamiya...... it is about impossible to know where to start and what to or not to buy.
Every time one comes up for sale... there is a C220 in the classifieds now... i am at a loss to know if i should purchase a camera or not.
Is there a general "Guide" to buying, or to know what to look for when getting one of these cameras.?
Even if it was just ONE Brand.
I am not talking about buying The Best or The Cheapest..... but just a guide, so that if i do buy a TLR, it will be a reasonable choice and i will have a camera that i can hold onto for awhile and not be sorry or have regrets about buying it.

Am i as clear as mud.?

If it were Ebay, i would just ASK you guys. But when it involves cameras in the classifieds on APUG, i do not want to put anybody on the spot, or ruin a sale for somebody that might actually be selling a decent unit.

Thank You

Click to expand...

never had one, never missed one;SLRs are just fine for me.

There is a good chance that you will learn a lot about your needs from your experience with your first TLR.
Mine is/was a Mamiya C330 I purchased in or about 1976 from the store I was working for. It was the store demonstrator.
It has served me well ever since in all sorts of ways, including photographing weddings, and has never needed any repairs.
Using it is quite different than using some of the other smaller, lighter and, I would argue, less flexible TLRs. So to answer your question - it depends on what is going to suit you.
I might suggest though that you find something that is in good condition and within your budget and run some film through it. Get a sense of how well you adjust to a waist level finder, a camera that presents issues with parallax when you use it close up, a camera that is so quiet when you release the shutter that sometimes you are unsure if it actually went click and a camera that might just fit into your hands better than any other camera you use.

Mamiya is good for Portraits as you use interchangeable lens while a Rollie or Yaschia is good for street shooting due to being lighter. I had both a Konica Omega Flex, and Mamyia 33 which I did not keep due to weight, got my first Yaschia 124 in the early 70s followed by a D. Of the 2 the Yaschia 124v is faster as it has a crank, the built in non behind the lens meters is good if used with care, while the D allows for double exposures. If you have the resources to get a few lens and can handle the wt I would recommend a 220 or 330. If you have limited budget then a Yashica D with the 4 element taking lens. If you have deep pockets then a Rollie with the 2.8 taking lens.

In high school during the 60's I was on the yearbook staff, I shot everything from candids, events,even sports with a Yashica D. I purchased my own D in 1969, shot portraits and weddings with it.I've owned many TLR's over the years including Mamiya's, the Yashica D remains my favorite.

I rank my Yashica Mat 124G as my first choice for when I want to be serious but not be a pack mule. I originally bought it partly because of GAS, but also because it was the last model of Yashica TLR production. It was in very nice cosmetic shape, good optics, and operated well. I was pleased enough with what I was able to do with it that when after several years the shutter release button seemed a little sluggish popping out after an exposure, I treated it to a CLA. I have had, for decades, an early Meopta Flexaret TLR, but it came from a flea market in marginal condition and needs a CLA and a new reflex mirror -- and it is about 30 years older than my Yashica. Anyway, I'd say find something that appears to be in good shape and dive in. I'm not aware of any new or NOS TLRs, so you will start in the used market. If you buy one and use it for a while without abusing it and decide it's not Your Thing(tm) you should be able to recover most of your money by selling it on. I would look for a four-element (or more) lens.

For my "most serious" medium format work I have a Bronica SQ-A and a bunch of lenses, finders and film backs. But if I cart a bunch of that gear away from the house, it can be a serious backpack load (15 - 20 pounds) of gear; not something I relish doing on a regular basis. I also have 6x6 and 6x9 folders for more casual shooting.

I have dragged the 124G from Philadelphia to Arizona and in between, as well as to Switzerland and a river cruise to Amsterdam most recently. It shoots well handheld, or with a monopod. (Although I admit I didn't use it as much as I thought I might; the tour was a bit scripted for my taste, plus my own little group had three additional people to keep track of.)

I've had quite a few TLRs and have a lot of opinions on them. I really like the form factor and I keep buying them. I've had a Mamiya C220, C330, Rolleiflex 3.5e Planar, Autocord, Rolleicord, Yashica D (yashinon tessar), Yashica LM (yashikor) and Yashica-mat LM (yashinon triplet). I'll summarize my opinions below:

In order of lens quality, best first: Rolleiflex > Mamiya > Autocord >= Rolleicord > Yashica D > Yashica mat LM > yashica LM

In order of weight (best/lightest first): Rolleicord > Yashica D > yashica LM > yashica mat LM > Autocord > Rolleiflex > Mamiya C220 > Mamiya C330

In order of reliability and ease and price of repair: Mamiyas > Rolleicord > Yashicas > Autocord > Rolleiflex

In order of shooting experience: Autocord* = Rolleiflex *> Yashicas > Mamiya C330 > Rolleicord > Mamiya C220

*Autocord gets a point for the focus mechanism, Rolleiflex gets a point for auto loading film

In order of screen brightness: Yashicas = Mamiya C330 > Autocord = Mamiya C220 > Rolleiflex > Rolleicord

In order of perceived build quality/feel/fit and finish: Rolleiflex > Rolleicord > Autocord > Mamiyas > Yashicas

In order of film flatness: Autocord = Mamiyas > Rolleicord = Yashicas > Rolleiflex

I've also played with Ricohmatic 225 and Rolleiflex 2.8 but don't have enough experience with them to put them on the list. The 2.8's lens didn't impress me much, it was not better than the Mamiya's or Rolleicord in the same way my 3.5e was. But it may have been out of adjustment so I don't want to ding it on the list. The ricohmatic 225 felt cheap compared to the Autocord, which is its direct competitor. I never got a chance to put a roll through it because the film advance was broken. Back to Keh!

I sold most of them. I currently only have the Rolleicord and the Mamiyas. I wish I had kept the Autocord and gotten it repaired, it's an awesome camera. Flat film plane, very high build quality, lenses are also great. They are not as sharp as the Rolleiflex Planar but I did find the color rendition to be perhaps better. The mamiya is a different beast but it certainly has its place if you don't mind bulk and want the features. But why are you getting a TLR if you don't mind bulk?

Of them, I feel that the Rolleicord is the most pure TLR. It is the lightest and has the best lens for its price. They are currently underpriced on the market. Get one before everyone catches on. I feel like only the Planar Rolleiflexes are "worth" the weight, price and complication increase over the Rolleicord. And maybe the Autocord, which is a great deal at $150, but I'm not sure are a great deal at $250.

One neat thing about the Autocord is that Minolta made a dual polarizer called the Autopole which fits over both lenses. It has a wheel on it to adjust it where you want it.

I guess we are not really answering the OP's question, which is when he is looking at a particular camera, how should he know if it is a good exemplar. I don't think there is much different in TLRs from other cameras. The questions I think about when examining a particular TLR are:

• Does the frame counter and film advance work? Unfortunately this is the most important thing and biggest failure point of TLRs but the hardest to test remotely.
  
• Is there haze/fungus in the lens?
• Is the focusing screen too dirty (all are dirty to some extent)
  
• Are there any big dings on the front standard (may indicate front standard misalignment). Look for front standard alignment.
  
• Does the shutter work (and can it be cocked from the knob if a knob-wind camera)? Slow speeds? High speeds? Self-timer?
• Does the hood open and close easily?
  
• Is there any evidence of bad or recent repair work (look for lifted leatherette on cameras that are not mentioned as being CLA'd)
  
• Specific to Autocords: Does the focusing knob move smoothly (if not, it is over $100 repair). If the focusing knob is broken off it is a $200 repair. I always warn eBay sellers about this when I ask them! What model shutter? Seikosha is more desireable than Optiper/Citizen for repairability reasons.
  
• Specific to Rolleiflex: Does the feeler mechanism work? Has a bright screen been installed? If one of the fancier models, does the mirror-in-hood mechanism work?
  
• Specific to Mamiya C220/C330 system: What is condition of bellows? It actually doesn't matter (there is an interior bellows for the taking lens so rips will not cause light leaks...but can cause you to pay a lower price!) Likewise, fungus in Mamiya TLR lenses is mostly a non-issue because they are trivial to clean out, unlike all other TLRs which are a pain to open up. What is the condition of the light seals?

Alan Gales said:

One neat thing about the Autocord is that Minolta made a dual polarizer called the Autopole which fits over both lenses. It has a wheel on it to adjust it where you want it.

Click to expand...

+1! That's a neat piece of gear.
The Autocord's Rokkor lenses are reported as tack-sharp - some say sharper than the Rollei Xenar or Tessar. The Rokkor takes Bay I accessories.

Alright, I guess it is time to post some actual pictures comparing them. Apples and oranges, different films, different situations, I know.
Autocord:

Each picture in this sequence is a half frame (!) from an Autocord on Velvia:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477618966/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477618671/in/dateposted-public/
on Fuji 400H

Rolleicord:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477618741/in/dateposted-public/

Look at how much detail there is in those rolls!! I believe I was at f11

Rolleiflex:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/46118837252/in/dateposted-public/

And finally, just some interesting comparison shots, I took some pictures of a car's wheel with a few caneras. Apples and oranges again but at least it's a real data point. I believe the Rolleicord is focused a bit farther back than the other two. And color ruins the picture. But anyways:
Rolleicord: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477766917/in/dateposted-public/
Rolleiflex: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477805692/in/dateposted-public/
Hasselblad 60mm Distagon Black T*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132764966@N03/48477631616/in/dateposted-public/

The hasselblad is obviously the best. But if I had never showed it to you I think the Rolleicord makes a very good picture.

I like TLR's too. Currently I have a Richoflex, which is a fun, lightweight camera. Also a C3, because it does more. I also had at one time a Rolleiflex but moved to a Hasselblad because again, it did more. Please understand that I'm no longer serious about photography but intent on just having fun so I'm willing to accept less than optimal performance from gear. Whatever you get, you can't go wrong. Have fun.

Thanks...Again... for all of the replies.
I suppose my main reason for asking is..... i am pretty much a 35mm SLR guy.
Yes, they DID make a lot of those, but they are pretty much all the "Same".
To me, the "look down into", TLR, is a much more mysterious camera.
Not to mention, i have NO experience with ever really using one. Consequently i have no idea what to consider or look for when i buy one.
Eventually i might just buy one from somebody on The Forum, or try Ebay and get one from somebody that seems honest and experienced with the TLR
Thank You

If you are just testing the water -- and after you've waded through all this -- it really comes down to which camera's usability fits your needs the most.

Personally, for a beginner, you could do far worse that buy a good working Yashicamat or a Rolleicord -- either can be had, in good working order, for less thatn $200. Both are good solid simple cameras -- no bells and whistles, no geegaws and gimcracks -- just basic cameras with the three basic adjustments. Both have extremely good lenses, tessar formula (which is what the Xenar is and Yashinon are even if they don't say so -- or damn close, good quality) --- which will be more than adequate for someone learning the camera. The Factory-supplied ground glass is plenty bright enough to learn on. Download the manual, spend an evening with a sacrificed roll of film and you're set.

Buy one of those and a brick of Ilford HP5-plus, put all your other gear on the shelf and haul this one camera around for a few months.

If you don't love it -- time to sell. You'll get your money back and will have gotten valuable experience and a bunch of lovely negatives in the process. Personally, I think even with just a good solid basic camera you will discover that these are extremely versatile and usable cameras. If you like it but wish it had a brighter screen, or interchangeable lenses, or a built-in meter, or auto film loading (Rolleiflex) or a titch-better lens (Tessar or Xenotar or Planar) then go ahead and upgrade.

You will not be sorry.

Grim Tuesday said:

...
I took some pictures of a car's wheel with a few caneras ...

Click to expand...

Oh, I love photographs of car's wheels ... This was with a Rolleiflex 3.5F Planar

wheel by Andreas, on Flickr

There's Rolleiflex, and there's everything else. They really are in a class of their own, and deservedly so.

A Mamiya 330S, 1979. A lump with great features like close focusing, variable framing, interchangeable lenses. Probably the most evolved TLR.