A market for handcoated/small batch silver chloride paper?

Ian Grant · May 7, 2008

For a number of reasons slow chloride emulsions & papers are relatively easier to make.

Some people go backwards to re-invent the Wheel, perhaps the project Htims A Leahcim is involved with is one of those.

There are a number of ways to skin a cat, and that's also true with emulsion manufacture. It's just over 30 years since I researched emulsion manufacture, and began making a fast projection speed emulsion commercially, but I've not forgotten my learning curve.

A good chloride paper is very achievable.

Ian

ilya1963 · May 7, 2008

I can go thru a box of 100 sheets in a 10-11 hour printing session , 20-30 negatives , it's just not feasible for me to start coating , I need to print not make paper , once in a while I could print a special negative on something different , but in general work flow Azo was a king...

Flashing with Azo is unbelievable

What I am saying is I am a supporter of anybody that is able to give me what I need , it's a selfish thing of course,

if someone could produce platinum/palladium paper that I could use out of a box , I'd be all over it...

ILYA

Ian Grant · May 7, 2008

At the moment and well in the foresee-able future I'm not interested in re-starting making silver based emulsions.

However I will assist, and help anyone else in any way. As long as they don't write backwards

Ian

Jim Fitzgerald · May 7, 2008

ilya1963 said:
I can go thru a box of 100 sheets in a 10-11 hour printing session , 20-30 negatives , it's just not feasible for me to start coating , I need to print not make paper , once in a while I could print a special negative on something different , but in general work flow Azo was a king...

Flashing with Azo is unbelievable

What I am saying is I am a supporter of anybody that is able to give me what I need , it's a selfish thing of course,

if someone could produce platinum/palladium paper that I could use out of a box , I'd be all over it...

ILYA

I agree that the work flow with Azo is King! If I could get 8x10, 11x14 and 8x20 Azo type paper I would be loving life. The ease of printing and quality of the prints I've doe so far on my small stock of Azo has made me very happy.

Jim

photo8x10 · May 8, 2008

I use Azo paper only, I have a bit of paper in both grade 2/3 in 8x10, but I haven't for my 8x20 prints, so if I could get 8x10 and 8x20 paper I would be loving. I would pay $2-4 for sheet.
I had put my order for M.P. paper, in both the format I use(and I hope to use earlier), but if I have another choise I 'll use both of them.

Stefano

philldresser · May 8, 2008

I've come into this quite late and have never used a silver chloride paper but wanted to add the following:

When I was at the Ilford factory in Mobberley they have a 'test' run coating machine which is a scaled down version of their main coating units. What are the possibilities of running a few thousand feet of your special emulsions through something like that? The coater has the drying process built in. I dont remember the full span dimension of the paper width but it was bigger than 8", which would give you lots of format variations. Once the roll is coated you can cut it how you like.

Ron could supply the emulsions, Ilford could coat, cut and box the limited run or just supply the rolls.

Just a thought!

Phill

Photo Engineer · May 8, 2008

I would like to add here that the title of this thread was chosen by the moderator when he split it out.

In view of the answers, I felt it necessary to state that my OP did not imply hand coating or custom runs.

PE

waynecrider · May 8, 2008

I'd be interested in trying it to see what the fuss is all about. If I found it interesting I might even make some emulsion, but that would be much further down the road. Right now I contact small negs, 3x4, 4x5, so would be interested in 25 sheet boxes in whatever size your producing.

Btw, what would be the life of such a product?

Photo Engineer · May 8, 2008

So far, it seems to keep like Azo did. I need to live for about 10 more years to say for sure.

PE

Stephanie Brim · May 8, 2008

Oh, and I don't know what I'd pay for a litre of emulsion to coat. At the moment, though, I have a little paper to get through.

Paul Cocklin · May 9, 2008

Being one of probably many who have just begun the long walk down the steep slope of printing, I would pay $2-$3.50 a sheet at least once just to see what the hubbub was about with Azo. And if happy with the quality, I would continue to pay that price. I'm mainly contact printing 8x10 right now, but would be looking for both larger and smaller in the future, I imagine.

Anyone want to donate a sheet of Grade 2 Azo so I know what I missed?

David A. Goldfarb · May 9, 2008

Paul Cocklin said:
Anyone want to donate a sheet of Grade 2 Azo so I know what I missed?

To get the results that really show what's special about Azo, you need negatives that are targeted to Azo--generally about one zone more contrast than your normal negatives, and like any new paper, it takes some experimentation to see how to get the most out of it, so you probably would want a box of it to work with it for a while and see what made it such a great paper. Most people go through a stage of experimenting with different developers before figuring out that amidol generally looks best and gives you the flexibility of waterbath processing, and then it's easy to overtone, so that's another thing to get a feel for.

I suppose that would also be true of a more expensive custom paper, which could be a deterrent to new users, but then again, people take up other handcoated processes with their own difficulties, and you've got to start somewhere.

WarEaglemtn · May 22, 2008

Minimum purchase amount? Economies of scale? Delivery time?

Give us a bit more info so we can start figuring out how much we can order.

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2008

This is not a request for orders. It is merely a query about the possible price range.

PE

Joe VanCleave · May 29, 2008

I'd pay a maximum of around $2-$3 per 8"x10" sheet.

Keep in mind that I've never printed with a silver chloride paper, but am interested in pursuing it, assuming that the materials were predictably available. Which is another reason why I'd not consider purchasing a liter of emulsion, and then having to buy the $1000 custom coating blade, and not having room for the temperature controlled hot plate, drying space, etc, etc. My volume of work can't justify that expense, and my darkroom isn't that big. Heck, I doubt if Edward Weston would have hand coated. Which is why he used commercial papers.

Thanks, Ron, for the inquiry.

~Joe

Photo Engineer · May 29, 2008

Joe;

My darkroom is 7' x 14' with a wet and dry side. The wet side is the only side used for making and coating. You don't need a temperature controlled hot plate to coat, just the ability to reach and hold about 105 F (100 - 110) range for the time you coat to keep the emulsion warm. You also don't need a blade as there are many alternatives. But then, I'm not selling any of this except the blade, and I'm exiting that as soon as the stock is sold out, which probably won't be any time soon. I'm not having any more made, I just have the ones that are being repolished.

PE

dwross · May 29, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Joe;

My darkroom is 7' x 14' with a wet and dry side. The wet side is the only side used for making and coating. You don't need a temperature controlled hot plate to coat, just the ability to reach and hold about 105 F (100 - 110) range for the time you coat to keep the emulsion warm. You also don't need a blade as there are many alternatives. But then, I'm not selling any of this except the blade, and I'm exiting that as soon as the stock is sold out, which probably won't be any time soon. I'm not having any more made, I just have the ones that are being repolished.

PE

Here's some information about the coating alternatives Ron mentions. I make the emulsion wells and sell them at cost in order to facilitate my goal of spreading the joy of handcrafted emulsions. My darkroom is 10' x 12' and I have little fancy equipment. Getting into the swing of making emulsions is the same kind of habit-space as making sourdough bread on a regular basis and just about as complicated. Granted, it's not for everyone, but it is far, far less expensive and complicated than the impression often given.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/MapTopic.htm#PaperCoating
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/PurchaseWell/PurchaseWell.htm

Denise Ross
www.thelightfarm.com

df cardwell · May 30, 2008

How much would you pay for a sheet of 8x10 grade 2 or grade 3 DW paper that closely duplicated Azo paper?

PE

If the emulsion was crappy, heartless, cold, and terrible like AZO, I'd pay to never have to work with that stuff again.

If it were like Athena, or even Illustrator's, $3 to $5 if I could make it myself and if the emulsion had a good 'shelf life'.
I'd name my next cat after you, and set a place at the dinner table every Sunday.

If it were like all warm tone papers over the past 20 years, and supply was unpredictable, sorry, I like palladium.

Photo Engineer · May 30, 2008

DF;

I would say that you should take this up with Michael Smith regarding the characteristics of Azo paper. I think that their opinion and the preponderance of data show that you are probably in a small minority. OTOH, just about any paper can be recreated with enough effort and someone to judge how the results look as experiments progress.

PE

Tom Hoskinson · May 30, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
DF;

I would say that you should take this up with Michael Smith regarding the characteristics of Azo paper. I think that their opinion and the preponderance of data show that you are probably in a small minority. OTOH, just about any paper can be recreated with enough effort and someone to judge how the results look as experiments progress.

PE

"How much would you pay for a sheet of 8x10 grade 2 or grade 3 DW paper that closely duplicated Azo paper?"

I'd be willing to pay 3$ to 5$ a sheet.

df cardwell · May 30, 2008

PE

The work you've done is impressive, wonderful, and valuable.

I WISH that there was more interest in a warm paper like Athena, but it has been gone for so long there are few who would even remember. The potential to coat our paper is important. The closer a method comes to a repeatable and consistent process, the more likely it becomes that more image makers can take advantage of it.

Photo Engineer · May 30, 2008

DF;

Thanks for your comment.

It is possible to make warm tone papers. I have made a warm tone Azo type paper AAMOF. Most of the formulas use nasty stuff such as Mercury and Lead, or they use custom organic chemicals. Thus, I can do it, but choose not to at the present time due to toxicity or expense.

PE

df cardwell · May 30, 2008

Thus, I can do it, but choose not to at the present time due to toxicity or expense.

Yes ! Thanks.

d

Curt · May 30, 2008

The range of currently available fiber base paper is $54 to $135 for a 100 sheet box; Ilford the most expensive and Slavic the least expensive, from a quick check of the Freestyle site. Since an "Azo" type paper would be in its own category as is Pt / Pd I think you would have to price it according to those paper costs adjusted to the price of its specific chemical costs. So having a fixed price over time would be out of the question, unless you have a chemical storage facility and are going to buy a "lifetime" supply of chemicals, whatever that is.

It's going to be a premium product and will be at the high end of the paper cost scale. I imagine it will be sold on a smaller scale also and that will effect the price. If you are going to sell a kit for the diy coater then the amount sold will be even smaller than a finished sheet of paper. I would imagine that people will pay more for a finished, coated sheet of paper and in a much higher volume. Those who want it bad enough will pay up to $5.00 a sheet. The casually interested might pay around $1.00 to $2.00 a sheet. If an expensive coating blade is required, the casually interested will drop out and the determined will suck it up and buy the equipment.

Some of the people out there still have some AZO paper left and will come in late to the new paper. I still have 2500 sheets of AZO to use.

Curt

Photo Engineer · May 30, 2008

Well, as can be seen in the post on metrics, I can make several grades along with custom grades. These can be coated on many different supports and I can custom coat sizes such as 10 x 20 or 5 x 10. The problems encountered include the cost of silver and labor. Labor is a huge factor even if this is automated to some degree.

Building a machine is very expensive, and the major manufacturers seem to be unable or unwilling to make these types of paper. Of course, they cannot get the paper types in rolls that any of us could get in sheets. For example, I have coated on matte 300# Lanaquarelle which gave some beautiful results. I've also coated on canvas and ivory tinted supports for additional variations.

The custom sizes and surfaces would have to be more expensive than the standard and I'm not sure of the market because most of you have stocks of Azo.

PE

A market for handcoated/small batch silver chloride paper?

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