A little rant about contrast, beginners, and gaining experience printing

I once had a realization while watching an old silent movie: There is really no such thing as black or white in a black & white image.

I was watching the movie "Metropolis" (1927) on the big screen. It was projected from real film, not video.
I was screening the movie before presenting it to the paying audience to make sure there were no errors or problems with the film or projector.

It slowly dawned on me that, even through I was watching a black and White movie there was very little, if any "black" or "white" in the movie. It was all made up of varying shades of gray. Maybe a few of the highlights would be white but not very many. Maybe a few of the shadows would be black but there were very few at all.

The experience changed my perception of black and white images. Even though we call it "Black and White" it's really "Dark gray and somewhat lighter gray."

Now, when I make black and white images I try to remember that experience.

Worker 11811 said:

I once had a realization while watching an old silent movie: There is really no such thing as black or white in a black & white image.

I was watching the movie "Metropolis" (1927) on the big screen. It was projected from real film, not video.
I was screening the movie before presenting it to the paying audience to make sure there were no errors or problems with the film or projector.

It slowly dawned on me that, even through I was watching a black and White movie there was very little, if any "black" or "white" in the movie. It was all made up of varying shades of gray. Maybe a few of the highlights would be white but not very many. Maybe a few of the shadows would be black but there were very few at all.

The experience changed my perception of black and white images. Even though we call it "Black and White" it's really "Dark gray and somewhat lighter gray."

Now, when I make black and white images I try to remember that experience.

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Hmmmm.....yes. "Black and white" is just what it is called. How come it took you so long to realize that there was also a bit of gray involved?

All my processes were "perfect" 26 years ago but... I've forgotten most of them. Everyone else was "not as good as me" back then because I was a young friggin' genius. Now this failing old man is resorting to Photoshop. Oh... woe is me.

Of course, I exaggerate to illustrate the thought. I don't mean that I suddenly realized that there are shades of gray besides just black or white. I am speaking more in terms of realizing just HOW MUCH gray there is in the image and how few elements in the image are really "truly black" or "truly white."

The movie is more than 80 years old. It was directed by Fritz Lang, one of the original "old masters" of movie making.
I was sitting there thinking that, even after all these years, the movie is still one of the "greats" of movie history.

I looked again and realized that, even though a part of the image was supposed to be "black" it really wasn't ALL black. It was just a dark shade of gray. And the things that are supposed to be "white" are still just another, lighter shade of gray. There were very few things in the entire movie that were truly "white-white" or "black-black."

It's not simply a realization that there is gray in a black and white image. It's more about understanding the magnitude of gray in the image.

I know you guys think this is silly but, in reference to the discussion about newbies using too much contrast to make photos, it might be beneficial to teach them that "black and white" is neither black nor white.

2F/2F said:

I do not find that beginners print with "too much" contrast. I find that they just can't print at all, .... Unless they have a natural ability for it from the start, most cannot print, and never will be able to...

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oh crap !!

tim k said:

oh crap !!

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Well, I just mean you can't teach someone to visualize and to go after what they want. That is natural, IMNSHO. When they come up to you asking, "What do I do to make it right?", I feel there is little hope. What I want to hear is, "I want this or that. What can I do to get it?" Give me a student with a little bit of "screw you, get outta my way", and I am super happy, because I know I have someone who is thinking and caring about their pictures for the sake of their pictures, and not for the sake of doing something "right"!

2F/2F said:

Give me a student with a little bit of "screw you, get outta my way", and I am super happy, because I know I have someone who is thinking and caring about their pictures for the sake of their pictures, and not for the sake of doing something "right"!

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I think this is the fundamental attitude of an artist, to shout "I have something to say and I am going to say it how I want" rather than whispering in the corner and hoping the world to hear. I do not mean you have to be rude bas***d but if you are wanting me to value your opinion, you had better be arrogant enough to value your opinion as well.

I work part-time in a camera store and often have people ask me to assess their photos; I like to decline while giving the cryptic response of "if you don't like it, then it is not good enough" which seems to puzzle most people but I think is very straight-forward. I think the darkroom is the same way, you will never overprint to what your standards are and if by a miracle you do, you now have a new standard to judge by.

I'm going to differ (slightly) with some of the most recent posts.

I think you can help people who are unsatisfied with their prints if you can help them understand why they might be unhappy.

For example, if someone feels that a print looks soft, but you can see that there is actually good detail, but the print has muddy shadows, you can point out how those shadows affects the viewer's perceptions, and make some suggestions (cropping, split contrast, burning in, etc.) on how the shadows might be improved.

Matt

Well, perhaps there is a glimmer of hope for me.

MattKing said:

I'm going to differ (slightly) with some of the most recent posts.

I think you can help people who are unsatisfied with their prints if you can help them understand why they might be unhappy.

For example, if someone feels that a print looks soft, but you can see that there is actually good detail, but the print has muddy shadows, you can point out how those shadows affects the viewer's perceptions, and make some suggestions (cropping, split contrast, burning in, etc.) on how the shadows might be improved.

Matt

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Of course. My point was that they should be aiming for something...should have an opinion of some sort, instead of just asking what the "right" thing to do do make it a "good" pic is. At that point, I just wonder why on Earth they are taking pix in the first place...and I, gently, try to get them to think of it this way; to aim for intangible effect, and not a set technical standard.

Brian, I use the same paper all the time.

brian steinberger said:

Thomas, my paper of choice is MGWT, though I also use MGIV sometimes as well. I looked at the curves on the Ilford page. They look pretty similar. I use LPD as well. Can you give me an example of a type of negative where you might choose one paper over another?

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brian steinberger said:

Thomas, I'm still don't completely understand the choosing a paper to match a negative. That's one thing I haven't learned yet.

When I speak of printing with too much contrast I think what I mean is I used to think every print HAD to have a pure black and some bright white paper base. I made a print a few months ago in which I realized I didn't want a true black and it was a revelation. It's little things like this that may seem silly to the season veteran printer, but to me are little moments of realization that come with learning this craft.

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These types of discussions are VERY helpful for beginners!! Many of you have been replying to my question lately and to here you guys talk about some of your revelations is great!!!

I would like to add a couple of 2cents here.

I thought I was good 35 years ago at college printing, little did I know how many negatives I would have to see before I became competent.
I apprenticed for three years making small prints for a demanding wedding photographer where we printed all the work inhouse,We dodged and burned every negative and I had to keep up with a busy printing scheduale each day.
since I have printed every week different types of printed processes and styles
here is what I can add to this thread

-Peter Shrager hit the nail on the head ....When contacting work at a lower grade to reveal what is on the negative.
-MAS wrote a article about outflanking which I have been doing since day one in printing.
-The garbage bin is indeed your best friend.
-Every negative needs dodging and burning
-Do not throw out darker or lighter prints, they may grow on you.
You also can use them for test toning prints.

Projects that will make you a better Printer???

-Make a point of selecting a body of work or go out and photograph for a few months a common series that is dear to your heart.
-Pick 200 images and be very liberal with your selections and have a mentor help select.
-Buy 6 or 7 boxes of 100 sheets of rc and go into the darkroom and work through all 200 images, do not worry about dust .
Make sure you dodge and burn each print, change filters , densitys as you go and consider these 200 prints as proofs.
You should be able to print 50 negatives a day if you work hard.
***We make all our assistants do this at our shop***

-Now sit down with your Mentor and go through the pile and select 20 .
-Buy 11x14 fibre paper and start making a portfolio of these 20 images.
This time concentrate on sharpness, clean prints, good dodge and burn , density and contrast.
Make sure you do 10 prints *negs * a day or finish over the weekend.
I also would encourage one to get a beautiful print and then very quickly make two more with significant changes to see some hidden possiblitys.
Paper developer choices are IMO the least important considerations to good quality printing.

Sit with your mentor and evaluate the prints and live with them for awhile.

If you do this a couple of times a year I believe your printing skills will improve.
Also if you believe that I am crazy and this will cost you way too much money , I would then suggest you take up golfing or basket weaving.
BTW there is no such thing as a perfect print, at a certain point you are just splitting hairs in your printing and if you want to drive yourself crazy go ahead , but lots of practice and remember dodging and burning every image is a rule in my shop.

I also believe that doing a show every two years is a good way to build your confidence , build your CV , and let people see your work .

Bob, that is absolutely wonderful advice.

I'd love to see a guideline to lith work as well, although you may have posted that somewhere if I recall.

Best to you in cold Toronto, from a now-warm former Buffalonian ;-)

Paul

I'm sure that Bob's advice is one of the reasons why he's so well respected in the community. I have seen his prints, and they are nothing short of amazing.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, Bob.

Paul

thanks
I love the winter , its a wonderful snowy day here in Toronto.

re lith , my way of working is different than most here that lith print.
All my development happens within 4 min. If longer I bail and change something.
I use a very concentrated dev as compared with most that I gather use.
I use flash on most situations unless I have an extreme flat neg.
I incorporate bleach and toner to create the colours I like and contrary to most workers with the exception of Thomas B I love Ilford Warmtone and think it is the most expressive of all the lith papers.
I started with Oriental G4 until they changed the paper, as well the original Fotospeed , until the factory was sold in India.
these were great papers as well as Kodak Elite which I have a small amount for specific project.
Lith printing is fun , fun , fun and what I said about dodge and burn dosen't really come in the equation... Though I use a lot of tissue and stuff to blur and create some crazy effects.

I read about how a lot of workers use 20 min and longer dev times and get great results. I would rather have my teeth pulled out one at a time with no novacane rather than rock a tray for 20 mins. therefore I have tried to find faster ways of getting the acceptable results.
Pound on the exposure to flatten the scene, back off and use heavy dodge to increase contrast locally.
Pound in some flash to your highlights for detail .
Pound on extra second exposure with tissue or something else and dodge like a mad man to create some stunning prints.
deep flat prints can be rescued with bleach and toning and ferri retouch.
Really contrasty negatives work well with flash.
Extremely bullit proof negatives with long long exposure will give some really stunning , gritty prints.
different pull times will give you wonderful effects and should be explored.
Old papers are good and can be helpful if they are slightly fogged.
A couple of no hold sessions with good tunes , a bit of booze or pot,and a open mind will be a good learning tool. In fact try not turning on the lights for a couple of hours and go through 4 or 5 versions of a few negatives. You will be amazed at how fun and simple lith can be without ever looking at a print in light.
Always use glass carriers as there will be long exposure, Use a 250 w bulb if you can in a omega condensor enlarger.
use different papers , use tissue, use a big dodge tool and have fun.


Here I know all the purist will say No Lights, he is crazy.. If you are not looking at your print in the dev then all is lost , whether it is a traditional print or lith.. probably the most underrated issue in learning how to print.

PVia said:

Bob, that is absolutely wonderful advice.

Pound on the exposure to flatten the scene, back of and heavy dodge to increase exposure
Pound in some flash to your highlights for detail .
Pound on extra second exposure with tissue or something else and dodge like a mad man to create some stunning prints.
deep flat prints can be rescued with bleach and toning and ferri retouch.
Really contrasty negatives work well with flash.
Extremely bullit proof negatives with long long exposure will give some really stunning , gritty prints.
different pull times will give you wonderful effects and should be explored.


I'd love to see a guideline to lith work as well, although you may have posted that somewhere if I recall.

Best to you in cold Toronto, from a now-warm former Buffalonian ;-)

Paul

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Bob, you're awesome...thank you.

I actually found another post of yours that I clipped re: lith in one of my desktop folders. I knew I had read something by you on the subject. I was in lith-land yesterday, 8 prints from 2 negatives, all very different, all within 4 minute dev, all with a stash of Forte PWT glossy...can't wait to show you.

Much thanks for all the inspiration...always love to read what you have to say.

I want to second the thanks to Bob Carnie for his thorough advice. One of the things that makes this site so excellent.

Question for Bob: MAS article about outflanking? Who's MAS and what is outflanking please? I might not have read all the posts in this thread thoroughly enough but I missed this.

Thanks

Bob, thanks so much for adding your wonderful advice to this thread!

Micheal A Smith ,, azo guy

He wrote an article in the early 90's for View camera which spoke of using a full sheet of paper as the first test, then rather than creeping up on the image he would be bold with his moves, darker or lighter depending upon how the first print came up.
His reasoning and I concur is that creeping up with desity and contrast is a big f.. waste of time. If he goes overboard no big drama as what he sees will be valuable in the next print.
Kind of like target shooting, finding out what is too dark what is too light and then getting somewhere in the middle.
In a nutshell outflanking... now my description is not exactly his but I believe a close method of finding a good balance.


I have done this from day one.. in fact we had clients that would order three contacts of each roll, normal 1stop over one stop under .. lots of magic can happen this way. I always , like Mr Shrager points out want to give a photographer a very open contact sheet so he/she can envision the full potential of the negative.

give it a try, you will see some incredible light and deep prints this way and may change your whole thought process about printing.
I really dislike the precision geeks that are not willing to spread their wings a bit and take some chances.

All we are really doing is laying down a series of tone on paper, I have seen beautiful prints that have no black and white tones in them and as well prints that have the full range.

jglass said:

I want to second the thanks to Bob Carnie for his thorough advice. One of the things that makes this site so excellent.

Question for Bob: MAS article about outflanking? Who's MAS and what is outflanking please? I might not have read all the posts in this thread thoroughly enough but I missed this.

Thanks

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WOW, this feels like a brain-dump class in printing. My big issue is more of a decision about interpretation. I've had a few negs that have stumped me (some for years and years) because there are so many ways to print them, all would make good prints but which one. I might have to print them three or four ways. For example, I shot some patterns in ice last week and they can be split-printed light with some dark/semi-dark details, go mainly gray with some white and some dark details or go mainly dark. Each one works in its own way. But Bob has often told me to stop thinking so damn much and just do!

Thanks everyone!

I had this question and thought i will ask it here(I dont know much about printing): I heard prints from an enlarger...the tones/colour change over time...Is it true???? Is it unstable??? I am thinking of a time frame of say 5-10 years.......

Bob Carnie said:

I really dislike the precision geeks that are not willing to spread their wings a bit and take some chances.

All we are really doing is laying down a series of tone on paper, I have seen beautiful prints that have no black and white tones in them and as well prints that have the full range.

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I have a bit of a focusing problem, and I'm a bit impatient. So I usually try to do just one or two prints when I'm in the darkroom, but be fairly critical about what I do and try several different approaches to the same print before I'm happy. I don't obsess over the process, or making the perfect print. I just want something that works in showing what the picture is.
It depends on the mood and the message. Sometimes high contrast with really sparkling highlights is exactly what's necessary. Other times very muted tones with soft gradations are good. And sometimes it needs to be black black black. Don't get me started on toners...

Mr Carnie gives awesome advice. But I am physically unable to print 50 proofs at a time. I just cannot do it. So I make contact sheets. And sometimes I do make two or three versions of it.
I have also adopted Mr Smith's advice on printing one purposely too light, and one purposely too dark, in order to determine how I want to approach it. It gives good indications of how both shadows and highlights act when pushed to or beyond their limits. A picture can become less cluttered this way and make it easier to access the content, or it can just look fricken cool that way.

I'm nowhere near as experienced as Bob is. But I definitely share some of his approaches, apart from the full weekend stints with hundreds of sheets of paper. Can't do it. I'm sure it's still excellent advice, though. Don't get me wrong.

- Thomas

Bob Carnie said:

Also if you believe that I am crazy and this will cost you way too much money , I would then suggest you take up golfing or basket weaving.

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I don't believe your crazy, but----------us folks that simply can't operate in the manner that you suggest on an annual basis because it actually would be too costly for our means---------should just QUIT! Right.

Apart from the other good advice that you have given Mr. Carnie, this part is simply BS.

Four or so years ago, when I took my first (and only) photography class, I was contemplating taking the next course in the series. I talked to the instructor to see what it entailed, and he told me to take the money I would spend for the class and buy a bunch of paper. Although he did not give the specific advice that Bob gives about developing a portfolio, the message was the same: the only way to become a better printer is to do it. Experiment, make mistakes, play around. I don't mean to criticize too much, but the internet has too many people that get hung up on all the tech stuff and don't do enough actual photography, the "precision geeks" as Bob calls them. As for the original point of the thread, I think it's great if beginners use too much contrast. If you look at the crap that comes out of most beginning darkrooms, most of the time it looks too flat and dull. Some contrast could really improve those lifeless prints. But, really, there are no rules. As soon as you think that there are, you'll be struck by something that you never thought possible.