A little advice, please!

Digidurst · Apr 20, 2005

Hi all! Hope all is well with everyone and that good light is shining on your shoulders

I have just returned from a LF workshop in the TN Smokies. I used my Horseman LE; My fully loaded pack weighed in at about 40 lbs but I was determined so I schlepped it around for 3 days. Now I'll bet you can guess what I'm about to ask! LOL

I want a folder!! I know, I always said I didn't but shucks, I'm learning

So here's the thing - I love my Horseman. I like its geared movements and ease of use. And I want to do more close-up work but it's hard to get my beloved beast into tight spots.

What would ya'll recommend to me as a good field camera that has lots of movements, rugged, good for close-ups (don't care for wide angle at all), will double as a studio cam and is budget priced?

p.s. I got to see/handle an Ebony in TN and while they are nice, I wasn't 'feeling the love' so we can cross those off the list - too expensive anyway!

Nick Zentena · Apr 20, 2005

What format? How close ?

If you want old and very reasonable the Ansco 5x7 universal. If it comes with a 4x5 back then it'll do both formats. Maybe $200 to $300 depending on condition. Geared focus and rise/fall. No front swing. I forget how long the bellows are supposed to be. 24"? Maybe 20". Won't go very wide in 4x5 mode but okay for wide 5x7 use.

http://www.fiberq.com/cam/scovill/agfa.htm

It won't twist into a pretzel. It's not light weight. But it folds into a reasonable package.

Digidurst · Apr 20, 2005

I would like to stick with 4x5 and would want something a tad more modern than the Ansco. The Shen Hao models seem interesting...

Nick Zentena · Apr 20, 2005

I've got an Ansco 5x7 , an 8x10 and a Shen Hao 5x7. The Shen Hao 4x5 has shortish bellows. 12" I think. So depending on how close you want to focus and with what lenses that might be an issue. The Ansco have geared focus and rise. The focus isn't a big issue with me but I find the geared rise better.

The only thing that I'd call modern on my Shen Hao is the graflok back on the 4x5 reducing back. The big advantage with the Shen Haos is they focus wider lenses then the Ansco. Plus of course they're brand new. Take bag bellows. Have a fair range of add on parts available for a good price. They aren't light.

removed account4 · Apr 20, 2005

how about a used toyo field-view?
it is based in part on the design of a super speed graphic, but
the back allows for movements. they allow you to go wide or kinda long
the metal bodied ones are built to survive an atomic bomb ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15247&item=7506839774&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15247&item=7506082913&rd=1

Dave Parker · Apr 20, 2005

The Shen's in 4x5 are a very reasonable camera to backpack with, although not the lightest in the market, they are an well built camera with a good amount of movements, they will accomidate up to about a 360mm lens, and the shen also includes the graloc type back which can be a benefit, depending on what type of format you wish to shoot, makes it easy to use roll film holders., like has been said, for around $600 the shen is a great value and will do just about anything most could want in a backpacking camera, and of course it is very simular to the Tachi, in looking at them they seem to be almost the same camera.

I know a couple of people that really like the Toyo Field cameras, good movements, and in a simular price range, I don't what you would call a modern field, as the designs have been essentually the same for a number of decades now.

You mentioned the ebony did not wet your whistle, but you did not mention which model you handled, so I would make sure and handle anything you think you may want to purchase, I find the ebony field and the shen field in the real world handle very simularly, but am sure others will have differing experiances.

Good luck in your search, there is a wide range of cameras out their that can be backpacked, so the task can indeed be daunting to find a new box to shoot with.

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Ole · Apr 20, 2005

Yet again I'll mention that the Ebony's I've seen have felt "flimsy" compared to my Gandolfi. Check out the Gandolfi Variant on http://www.gandolficameras.com .

Digidurst · Apr 20, 2005

Dave, I forget the exact model number but it was an ebony Ebony with asymmetrical back tilt. Don't get me wrong, it was a nice camera but for that kind of money, I need to be in love and I just wasn't.

As for modern, I guess I should have said 'newer' and easy to get accessories for.

Yup, there are lots of models to choose from. I will just have to take my time, I reckon. Like I said, I love my Horseman - it's just too big.

Dave Parker · Apr 20, 2005

I would still say in the current market the Shen is probably the best value in the bunch, good movements, not to heavy and lots of acccessories available for it, in addition to being able to use others accessories due to the graflok back, and the Shen add on's seem to be quite reasonalbe for pricing.

Of course, another option is Horseman does also make a Tech Field line of cameras, and horseman build quality is very good as you have found out with your LE,

There page on tech fields is below.

Dead Link Removed

Dave

Mongo · Apr 20, 2005

Unfortunately, if you want something modern then I think you've pretty much given a set of requirements that can't be met. Here's what I think you want (gleaned from your message):

-Geared movements
-Easy to use
-Lots of movements
-Rugged
-Good for closeups (= both long bellows and rigid)
-Double as a studio camera
-Cheap

It's the last requirement that's going to make this hard. A definition of "cheap" would be helpful...but the other requirements (especially geared movements) remove the bottom end of the price scale for new cameras.

For example, both the Tachihara and Shen-Hao 4x5 have geared focusing, but the other movements aren't geared. They both have 12" of bellows (the Shen-Hao can be extended to about 14" moving the front standard out ahead of the front tilt mechanism), but if you want to do close-ups with anything longer than a normal lens then that won't be enough bellows for you.

Now you have to move up to the next tier in pricing, and "cheap" becomes a bigger problem. There are other cameras that are less expensive than the Ebony, but they don't meet all of your needs.

Let us know what "cheap" means to you...that piece of information would be very helpful.

The Gandolfi cameras that Ole recommends are very nice, and worth a look. Also, you might want to expand your search to 5x7 cameras with 4x5 backs. These will tend to give you longer bellows and more movements for use as 4x5 cameras (although they will be hard to use for 4x5 WA, but that was something you were willing to give up).

Be well.
Dave

Donald Miller · Apr 20, 2005

I have used the Zone VI in 4X5 for over twenty years. These show up on the used market regularly, are reasonably priced and have decent bellows extension (18 inches) for that format. I use everything from a 90 mm to a 305mm on that camera. If wanted one could even use a 360 mm lens at infinity focus. There is availability of a wide angle bellows for the short lenses. This camera is the double extension design as compared to other manufacturers that have only single extension and shorter bellows extension. I have found the camera to be solid.

I don't know much about the current models of that camera from Calumet but the earlier cameras with brass hardware are excellent in my opinion.

Digidurst · Apr 20, 2005

Yeah, it seems I've come up with an impossible 'wish list' - I'm good at that

Geared movements are something I realize I will have to give up on field camera - I mentioned them only because that is one of the things I like most about my Horseman.

The pricing (at Badgergraphic.com for example) for the Shen Hao and Tachihara appeal so I guess that narrows down my range. Ecomics dictate that I stay within that range unless I want to sell my Horseman (and I'm not sure I want to do that at all). Also, I am still very much a beginner so spending mega bucks doesn't make sense to me at this time.

By the way, what is your definition of a 'normal lens'?

(Thanks for the help so far )

Donald Miller · Apr 20, 2005

Digidurst said:
Yeah, it seems I've come up with an impossible 'wish list' - I'm good at that

Geared movements are something I realize I will have to give up on field camera - I mentioned them only because that is one of the things I like most about my Horseman.

The pricing (at Badgergraphic.com for example) for the Shen Hao and Tachihara appeal so I guess that narrows down my range. Ecomics dictate that I stay within that range unless I want to sell my Horseman (and I'm not sure I want to do that at all). Also, I am still very much a beginner so spending mega bucks doesn't make sense to me at this time.

By the way, what is your definition of a 'normal lens'?

(Thanks for the help so far )

Generally a normal lens for a given format is the diagonal measurement of that format. In 4X5 that is normally acknowledged as being 150 mm.

removed account4 · Apr 20, 2005

hi again

yup the toyo field-view is an olde design, but if it ain't broke, why fix it?

i am kind of leaning towards dave ( mongo )'s suggestion of a 5x7.
i know you probably are thinking " 5x7, yikes, i don't need anything that big, escpecially since i am a 'newbie'" .... but with a reducing back it is 2 cameras in one AND the 5x7 format is beautiful for landscapes, portraits and architectural photography ( and contact prints nicely too ).

i've a 5x7 and in all honesty i use it a lot more than my 4x5, and it isn't THAT much bigger.

good luck with figuring all this stuff out, it is a daunting task to decide on a camera ( used or new ) ..

john

oh ... some folks suggest that a normal lens on a 4x5 is around 150.

jimgalli · Apr 20, 2005

Toyo's only rack out to about 14" so I think that precludes one of your requirements. I was disappointed when my very clean very nice Zone VI sold last month for $575. I know we love to hate Fred Picker, but the camera's are very VERY nice. No you can't have cake and eat it too. I felt the ZVI was a fair mix of weight, length, quality, and good well proportioned looks. Easy to use. I traded mine for a Wisner, but honestly, I think perhaps the ZVI tightened down a little better. Maybe not, but it's close to a toss up. I feel they're a good value for the $$ they fetch.

rbarker · Apr 20, 2005

I use a Toyo 45AX, a metal folder, that I've generally been quite happy with - both in the field and for some studio uses. As noted above, however, most of the 4x5 folders are limited to around 240mm or so of bellows. The Shen Hao has the advantage of interchangeable bellows, but if you don't use wide lenses, that may have less appeal for you.

For close-ups (1:1?), the short bellows of most 4x5 folders will force you to use fairly short lenses - meaning the lens will be quite close to the work, perhaps causing problems with lighting. (1:1 requires 2x the focal length of the lens in bellows draw.) Depending on how much close work you do, Mongo's suggestion of a 5x7 with a 4x5 back might be good.

Digidurst · Apr 27, 2005

It's here!! It's here! It's here

Now I gotta figure out the cute little thing works - no instructions! No manual! Nothin! God, I hope I don't break it trying to figure it out - that would definitely ruin my day. LOL

bobfowler · Apr 27, 2005

Digidurst said:
It's here!! It's here! It's here

Now I gotta figure out the cute little thing works - no instructions! No manual! Nothin! God, I hope I don't break it trying to figure it out - that would definitely ruin my day. LOL

Uh... I went back through the thread and, unless I just missed it... Which one did you get?

Nick Zentena · Apr 27, 2005

Go to the Shen Hao forum website. I think they have an Ebony manual that is supposed to be pretty close. Just don't force anything. Be gentle.

jmdavis · Apr 27, 2005

Definitely get the Ebony Manual from the Shen Hao forum. Also remember that you have to loosen the rear tilt knobs and pull the arms slightly toward the front of the camera to fold.

Digidurst · Apr 27, 2005

bobfowler said:
Uh... I went back through the thread and, unless I just missed it... Which one did you get?

The 4x5 model

Did I mention it's cute? I mean, compared to my Horseman, it looks like a toy

glbeas · Apr 27, 2005

You ARE going to bring it to Birmingham on the 15th aren't you?

Digidurst · Apr 27, 2005

glbeas said:
You ARE going to bring it to Birmingham on the 15th aren't you?

LOL - I'm seriously considering it, thanks for asking!

Seemed like there might be some fun things for my husband and son to do while I'm shooting. But we're also going to the beach (Myrtle) at the end of May so that might be too much travel for the attention span of an eight year old to handle!

A little advice, please!

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