A Good Little Mystery to Puzzle Through. PyrocatHD Misbehaving after 15 yrs.

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jimgalli

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I've been mixing my own PCatHD almost from the day Sandy posted his recipe and it has always been flawless in every application over the eons. Until now.
YashGSN35_02ss.jpg

The film is Kodak 3404 Aerial Reconnaissance 35mm 1998 vintage, 3 mil thick Estar base from a 200ft. roll. The lines through the images go right through the borders into the next image and can even be seen in the sprocket area.

Here's what I've done. I suspected the film. It's in surprisingly good shape. Very little film base plus fog and with the PCat the grain structure is just glorious. I opened a second box of same, I have 800 feet of it, and shot some from the unopened box, shot some more from the original box, and also shot some 4mil Panatomic X to throw in the mix.

The Panatomic came out of the soup just fine. Both of the Plus X had the lines. AHA! I said. Bad Yellow Box. Almost impossible to even fathom. But both PlusX examples from two different sources had the same lines.

Then before I took 800 feet of glorious old Kodak to the dumpster I said, I'd better try a different developer. So I shot a bunch of nothing like you see, on the original source Plus X and developed it in Dektol stand. 1:100, stand develop for 13 minutes and toss the dektol. Very weak and also quite inexpensive. 500ml is 5 grams of Dektol powder. That film came out glorious. Same Plus X 3404. I would do it all that way but the Dektol even with a stand development creates pretty harsh grain. But no lines.

Then I said, AHA it's the PCat. It likes Panatomic and it likes Aviphot (80 + 200) and it likes almost anything I put into it, but it doesn't like Plus X Aerial Reconnaissance 3 mil 3404. Bizarre.

Then I held the A syrup up to the light and it had floaties. Particulates. Oh horrors. So I filtered it through a coffee filter and took another roll of 3404 to try it after the clean up. Same lines.

That's my workflow so far. What do the developer gods recommend I try next. I'm thinking perhaps mix up some new PCatHD Part A and give it a go with newly mixed soup. But again, all the other films have worked fine in the stuff I'm using. I probably mixed up that A solution 3 - 4 months ago.

If you lay awake thinking about this one . . . . I'm sorry. Here's an image from the Dektol stand;

img013.jpg
img015.jpg
 
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Shoot a strip of 5-6 frames. In total darkness cut the film into two along the longer side so that one half of each frame is in one strip and the other half frame is in the other strip. Develop one strip in Pyrocat and the other in Dektol. If you still see longitudinal lines in the Pyrocat strip, then maybe something is going on.
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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That's kind of what I've already done. Same camera, same day, same film, the Dektol roll is fine and the Pcat rolls are stripey. Thanks.
 
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That's kind of what I've already done. Same camera, same day, same film, the Dektol roll is fine and the Pcat rolls are stripey. Thanks.

I thought you used different rolls, maybe I read incorrectly. By cutting the film strip longitudinally into two and developing you should be able to confirm that the results you're getting are not because of different rolls.
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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Different rolls.
No it's all sourced from the same 200 foot long roll spool. Same film from same spool in same camera same day etc. Only difference is the developer. I'm rolling the stuff into cannisters in the dark from the long roll source.
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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Btw to further sort the 3404 has been rolled into different canisters from the long roll and shot in 4 different Nikons besides the yashica I used today and all those different combinations produce same lines with the 3404 film and PCat.

It’s a weird one. Rule out pressure plates and scuffing from bad canisters.
 

Kino

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Just throwing things out here...

With the PCat... what's the development time? I read that the 3404 has two interesting characteristics:

1. Highly hardened emulsion for Versamat processing.
2. Panchromatic with extended red sensitivity.

Any chance the PCat development time is not long enough to uniformly penetrate the emulsion, like the stand-developed Dektol, and that is causing the streaking?

Doesn't a highly hardened emulsion tan even more over time and become less permeable?

As for the extended red, no suggestions there; just found it interesting.

We once had a bad batch of ORWO with a faulty AHU layer that kinda looked like that (sorta), but I don't see any mention of AHU layers on this film...
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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The first frame has an additional non-horizontal mess (extends slightly into the second frame).

If you examine the negatives closely at an angle and/or by raking light, first confirm there is no damage on the base side and then look carefully at the emulsion. Do the artifacts in the scans correspond with anything visible on the emulsion such as a raised/lowered “relief” of the emulsion itself, or alternatively emulsion damage/missing emulsion?

Raking light over it holding it bent with emulsion facing me and looking through a loop everything is perfectly flat. You cannot see any raising or lowering of emulsion build up like in our older slide films. I also thought about pre-soak and increased that time a bit and even tried adding a dash of alcohol into the pre-saok water to try to make sure it was ready. Is there something else to do in pre-soak that can sensitize emulsion more than just straight water?

BTW when I added the Panatomic to the mix with the two different sourced 3404's I underexposed the panatomic at asa64 and overexposed the 3404 at 64 and then effectively pushed the panatomic a stop and pulled the 3404 a stop by decreasing development time. Everything met in the middle. All three in the tank at the same time, same developer, same conditions. I got good usable development on the panatomic and same problems on the 3404.

I think all I can try is fresh batch of Part A of the PCat but it's looking more and more like I'll simply need to switch to a PQ developer for this particular film. All 4 boxes of 3404 have same batch no. same date and appear to have been made on the same day so I don't expect any changes box to box. I've got two of the 4 opened and they acted identically.

The other problem with the 3 mil stuff is the light trap on the canisters will let light in if you're not very careful when you load and unload it. It's super thin. That's how they could get 200 feet in the same size can as usually only holds 100.

One more variable. I'm using the original first formula of PCatHD. I know they hot rodded it up with other stuff as time went by but I never paid any attention because it was working great for my needs. Also, I have Aerial Plus X on 9 1/2" rolls, the 4 mil stuff and if I do 8X10 sheets cut out of those rolls of PlusX with the Pcat they're fine. This 3404 is the only problem child I've ever had.

Thanks all.
 

Richard Man

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No idea about your issue, but I just want to take a look this lens :smile:

upload_2021-9-30_10-33-21.png
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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A happy but confused ending. I mixed up a new batch of PCatHD Part A earlier today and souped a short batch in the new stuff and the "lines" are gone. That's not satisfying as to knowing why, but very satisfying that I don't have to junk 650 feet of film. Something about that film was the sole problem that showed up with the old batch of PCatHD part A. It did everything else fine. New batch fixed it, but I'll probably never know why. That's beyond this simple person's pay grade.

However this thread may help someone to work through other problems by doing similar processes of elimination. I was down to one developer one film that had the problem and that was confounded by the developer working fine with "other" films and also by the 3404 working fine with "other" developers.

Again, thanks for the sounding board.

Richard, that big old Streetcar headlight of a lens could be had. As could anything else on that table. ;~'))
 
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