A few questions before my first b/w development

I will begin developing 35mm, but will eventually like to move into 120

Chemistry:
1) Do you prefer to buy the developer in powder form and then dissolve in water when needed ? Perhaps this way is more amenable for longer term storage ?
2) Do you use separate developers for developing the prints (paper developer) versus developing the film (film developer) ?
3) For stop baths, do you prefer to use something like acetic acid or some other weak acid - or just water is sufficient ?
4) I understand it must be up to personal preference, but I am curious to learn what is your preferred product for b/w development? Brand and model.

Development tanks
1) I was thinking about getting a tank that holds 2 - 35mm film rolls / 1 - 120 roll ? Do you think this is practical ? If so, do you fill the entire tank volume even if there is just one 35mm roll inside ?

Other equipment
1. What do you think is the most practical setup to begin with ? For example, what volume graduated cylinders do you find most useful ( e.g.1 x 50mL + 1 x 500mL ?)
2. Is a thermometer useful for b/w development ?
3. Storage containers: do you prefer to store both developer and fixer in 5L containers ? I saw some sites that sell accordion bottles so that they are compressible to eliminate any empty space and adjust to different volumes. Are these bottles worth their value ?

Waste management
1. I know that the fixer has Silver in it - have you found that these amounts are negligible or do you coordinate with local waste management to dispose of them ?

Thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge,

Aaron

To start make things as simple as inexpensive as possible
1-250mL Adox Rodinal
1or 2-Adox graduated cylinders for dilution
A simple Paterson tank
An Adox thermometer
1 L of Adox powdered fixer.
Use diluted vinegar or similar acetic acid stop to protect the fixer.

This is for film.

Welcome to Photrio!!!!

Chemistry:
1) I have both powder (ID-11, Microphen, chemistry for D-23) and liquid (Rodinal, DD-X, Ilfotec HC)
2) Yes, separate developers for developing prints versus film
3) For stop baths, I use Ilfostop
4) For general use I now go with D-23, after years of oscillating between Rodinal & Ilfotec HC. For pushing I use Ilford's DD-X

Development tanks
1) Tank that holds 2 - 35mm film rolls / 1 - 120 roll is perfect. Patterson tank tells you the minimum amount of liquid for just one film. Filling more than that is a waste (exception may happen for some developers used at extremely high dilutions in which a minimum stock solution is recommended).

Other equipment
1) At least 4 x 600 ml cylinders (developer, stop, fix, photo flo), 5 if you do the Ilford wash method. You'll need 600 ml if you're developing 2 35mm films at the same time. At least one 1L for mixing chemistry (I prefer using a 2L one for mixing 1L of chemistry to avoid spills). At least one in 25 ml increments and one in 10 ml increments for smaller measurements. One 5 or 10 ml syringe for very small measurements (Ilfotec HC, Rodinal)
2) A thermometer is essential as temperature control is of foremost importance
3) I have accordion bottles, transparent plastic bottles and amber glass bottles. I prefer the latter, question of taste. I only keep 1L storage containers.

Waste management
1) Everything goes down the drain, I'm afraid...

Alex Benjamin said:

At least 4 x 600 ml cylinders

Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with what has been said, however I think you can easily get away with less than that. I have more but only use one 1 L graduate on the regular for developing film, although if course you do need something to measure small amounts if you use a concentrated developer like Rodinal.
I mix developer in it. While I develope, I prepare stop (usually just water at 20+-3°C) in it. Fixer goes in the dev tank right from the bottle and back, no need to measure precise amounts. And I find the often mentioned need for a separate graduate when diluting the fixer vastly overstated. I always rinse it well after use and use one for everything. The developing tank also sees all the chems.

Bienvenue!

1) Do you prefer to buy the developer in powder form and then dissolve in water when needed ? Perhaps this way is more amenable for longer term storage ?
I don't have a preference, honestly. I'm sure the knowledgeable people will chime in terms of how long lasting developers are.

2) Do you use separate developers for developing the prints (paper developer) versus developing the film (film developer) ?
Yes

3) For stop baths, do you prefer to use something like acetic acid or some other weak acid - or just water is sufficient ?
I use either, depending on what I have. Using stop bath is useful for making your fixer last longer.

4) I understand it must be up to personal preference, but I am curious to learn what is your preferred product for b/w development? Brand and model.
I like ID-11/D-76 for HP5/Kentmere 400/APX400.

Development tanks
1) I was thinking about getting a tank that holds 2 - 35mm film rolls / 1 - 120 roll ? Do you think this is practical ? If so, do you fill the entire tank volume even if there is just one 35mm roll inside ?
That's what I have. At the bottom of the tank, you have the measurements for how much chemistry to use depending on what's inside the tank.

Other equipment
1. What do you think is the most practical setup to begin with ? For example, what volume graduated cylinders do you find most useful ( e.g.1 x 50mL + 1 x 500mL ?)
I like to have 1L ones (1 for each chemical) and I bought a small one that's usually used for drinks that has much smaller measurements for small quantities.

2. Is a thermometer useful for b/w development ?
A must!

3. Storage containers: do you prefer to store both developer and fixer in 5L containers ? I saw some sites that sell accordion bottles so that they are compressible to eliminate any empty space and adjust to different volumes. Are these bottles worth their value ?
I prefer 1L glass bottles. Accordion ones are pretty porous and hard to clean.

Waste management
1. I know that the fixer has Silver in it - have you found that these amounts are negligible or do you coordinate with local waste management to dispose of them ?
I dump the fixer in the public darkroom I use. Developer and stop bath go down the drain at home.

Happy developing! Warning: chances of getting addicted are high.

You are going to get a million answers. Use whatever developer is available to you. Stick with it, same with the film you are using. An acetic acid stop is recommended, to stop development immediately, and to extend the life of your fixer. I use Ilfostop, but in a pinch, I'll dilute down some grocery store vinegar, or citric acid. For fixer, I have always used Ilford Rapid Fix.
I don't print gelatin silver (I'm into alt processes), but when I did I used Ilford MG developer.
I really like Paterson tanks. I have one that will hold two, 35mm reels, and four.
Many of my containers are not dedicated for darkroom use. I love the dollar store. Label everything.

mshchem said:

To start make things as simple as inexpensive as possible
1-250mL Adox Rodinal
1or 2-Adox graduated cylinders for dilution
A simple Paterson tank
An Adox thermometer
1 L of Adox powdered fixer.
Use diluted vinegar or similar acetic acid stop to protect the fixer.

This is for film.

Welcome to Photrio!!!!

Click to expand...

Thank you for the warm welcome, I was surprised how quickly I was able to connect with such knowledeable and kind people on here. Happy I've found this place.

aaronzomback said:

I will begin developing 35mm, but will eventually like to move into 120

Chemistry:
1) Do you prefer to buy the developer in powder form and then dissolve in water when needed ? Perhaps this way is more amenable for longer term storage ?

Click to expand...

I buy developer in powder form mostly because both the film developer I prefer (XTOL) and the paper developer I prefer (Dektol) are only offered in powder form. I believe the powder form in the original sealed packaging has a longer shelf life than liquids, but I don't have any proof.

aaronzomback said:

2) Do you use separate developers for developing the prints (paper developer) versus developing the film (film developer) ?

Click to expand...

I use XTOL for film and Dektol for paper. Properly prepared and stored, they have good shelf life. They are not exotic developers. They are rock solid and give me great results. Once you get to know a little about a particular developer you like, you tend to stay with it. There are lots of other choices, but I'm happy with what I know.

aaronzomback said:

3) For stop baths, do you prefer to use something like acetic acid or some other weak acid - or just water is sufficient ?

Click to expand...

I use acetic acid. It's cheap. It stores well. No brainer for me.

I've experimented with a water stop, and it seems to work pretty well, but why risk shortening the life of your fixer for something so easy and cheap as acetic acid.

aaronzomback said:

4) I understand it must be up to personal preference, but I am curious to learn what is your preferred product for b/w development? Brand and model.

Click to expand...

I assume you're asking about tanks and reels. For roll films, I use and swear by good(!) stainless reels in stainless tanks. I don't care much about the brand of tank, but the reels must be Hewes or Nikor and they must be straight and undamaged. Spend an hour with a junk roll of film to practice loading the stainless reels in the daylight. After that, they'll load like a dream, wet or dry, forever. With stainless reels, you can tell by feel if the film is misloaded.

For 4x5, I use the Stearman SP-445 tank and sheet holders. For 8x10, the Stearman SP-8x10 or sometimes BTSZ tubes.

aaronzomback said:

Development tanks
1) I was thinking about getting a tank that holds 2 - 35mm film rolls / 1 - 120 roll ? Do you think this is practical ? If so, do you fill the entire tank volume even if there is just one 35mm roll inside ?

Click to expand...

I use stainless tanks. They're cheap. I don't particularly care what brand. The plastic lids always break first, so I buy extra lids.

I use the correct size tank for what I'm developing. A single or double 35mm tank or a single, double, or triple 120 reel tank. I use the recommended amount of chemicals for each tank size.

aaronzomback said:

Other equipment
1. What do you think is the most practical setup to begin with ? For example, what volume graduated cylinders do you find most useful ( e.g.1 x 50mL + 1 x 500mL ?)

Click to expand...

Pick the tank size you plan to start with and let the required amount of chemicals be the guide. I use plastic graduated cylinders because they work and I don't need to be as careful with them when washing as I would with glass. High precision measuring isn't required for this step.

aaronzomback said:

2. Is a thermometer useful for b/w development ?

Click to expand...

Absolutely required. Developers are more or less active depending on the temperature. You can properly develop film at almost any reasonable temperature, but you have to know the temperature.

aaronzomback said:

3. Storage containers: do you prefer to store both developer and fixer in 5L containers ? I saw some sites that sell accordion bottles so that they are compressible to eliminate any empty space and adjust to different volumes. Are these bottles worth their value ?

Click to expand...

I use fillable wine bags (one time fill) for my developer once it's mixed. They are 100 times better than the accordion bottles, but serve the same purpose: keep air out of the chemicals you want to store.

aaronzomback said:

Waste management
1. I know that the fixer has Silver in it - have you found that these amounts are negligible or do you coordinate with local waste management to dispose of them ?

Click to expand...

"The solution to pollution is dilution." Small amounts of fixer go down the drain with lots of water following. Large amounts go to the hazmat drop off site. XTOL is quite benign and can go down the drain with no worries. The same with acetic acid.

aaronzomback said:

Thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge,

Aaron

Click to expand...

As mschem mentioned, simple and inexpensive at first.

Find whatever you can from around the house before buying lots of purpose built expensive equipment.
A bottle of universal developer that will work on film and prints, and a bottle of fixer.

You may want to forget about stop bath chemicals, and use the clear vinegar to save on money. Or even flushing in plenty of changes of plain water. I never used a chemical stop bath for many years when I started, money was tight in those days.

Probably frowned on by most these days, for a long time I used one measuring cylinder for everything, just make sure to clean before each new chemical to prevent cross contamination. After all how many people have used the glass you are drinking out of in the cafe before you put it to your lips? We don't think twice if it's been thoroughly washed.

Liquid concentrated chemicals are easier to use in the beginning.

Many people use safely labelled fizzy drinks bottles for storage.

Develop a few films and prints using the bare minimum of gear and see if it is the really the thing for you.

If you really enjoy living the life of a mole in a dim or dark room as we all seem to do here, then it is time get the catalogues out and spend your spare cash on more chemicals, papers, gadgets and equipment.

Get to know and be comfortable with two or three films at first and don't go flitting around trying out everyone else's wonder developer, and papers.


Store all your chemicals and gear well out of the way of children and pets. They are all very curious animals.


At first keep it simple and cheap.

Enjoy.

aaronzomback said:

Thank you for the warm welcome, I was surprised how quickly I was able to connect with such knowledeable and kind people on here. Happy I've found this place.

Click to expand...

Side note: il y a une dizaine d'années, je suis brièvement passé par Orange en route vers Avignon, partant de Vaison-la-Romaine. Il y a de superbes photos à faire dans ce merveilleux coin de pays !

Alex Benjamin said:

Side note: il y a une dizaine d'années, je suis brièvement passé par Orange en route vers Avignon, partant de Vaison-la-Romaine. Il y a de superbes photos à faire dans ce merveilleux coin de pays !

Click to expand...

I agree! I passed by on my way to Arles not long ago and thought I needed to return and visit properly! (that goes for Avignon too).

The number one item you can't live without is an accurate thermometer.
Go to Dollar General (or equivalent) and buy four identical 4 cup measures.
Film developer and paper developers are different
I switched to citric acid stop from acetic acid because of the smell, works for film and paper.
Any rapid fixer works for film and paper.
Buy a decent timer for your process.
Decide if you want to use plastic or stainless steel film developing tank, buy a quality tank.

I'm also a fan of the Paterson tanks.

Even if you outgrow the Two 35mm/Single 120 reel tank, it is still a solid choice to have in a collection. If you rarely find yourself with more than one roll of 120 to develop at a time, then it will do great without issue.

If you're like me and have a bad habit of building a backlog to develop and filling a few of the larger tanks at a time, then the small one will still come in handy if you find yourself with a single roll of unusual film/something in need of push/pull, or just a roll you want to 'jump the queue' with. I think I have three or four 'reel 3's and a 'reel 5' in my collection, which I eventually need to put chemistry through sometime this week.


Graduated cylinders are nice for accurate measuring while mixing up chemistry, but personally I only keep a pair of 1L cylinders and a handful of smaller ones [Syringes, without any needle attached, are very handy measuring tools, and I like mine for measuring out things like wetting agent for final rinse.]

When it comes time to actually run chemistry through my tanks I much prefer to work out of common plastic measuring cups. The low wide ones with pour spouts and handles.
I find they're less likely to get bumped or knocked while I'm working, they're not tall skinny things waiting to get knocked over, and they stack together into a smaller space after they're dried and ready to put away. I just use cheap discount/dollar store ones.

Andrew O'Neill said:

Use whatever developer is available to you. Stick with it, same with the film you are using

Click to expand...

Yes! One film, one developer to start. Then explore.

And since we're bombarding you with information, here's one more thing to consider: this free app as a timer

Daniela said:

Yes! One film, one developer to start. Then explore.

And since we're bombarding you with information, here's one more thing to consider: this free app as a timer

Click to expand...

I don't know this one! I was going to suggest the Massive Dev Chart Timer, which is the one I use. Latest version is really practical, as it lets you adapt many parameters. I will download Dev it to compare.

Me

Daniela said:

Bienvenue!

1) Do you prefer to buy the developer in powder form and then dissolve in water when needed ? Perhaps this way is more amenable for longer term storage ?
I don't have a preference, honestly. I'm sure the knowledgeable people will chime in terms of how long lasting developers are.

2) Do you use separate developers for developing the prints (paper developer) versus developing the film (film developer) ?
Yes

3) For stop baths, do you prefer to use something like acetic acid or some other weak acid - or just water is sufficient ?
I use either, depending on what I have. Using stop bath is useful for making your fixer last longer.

4) I understand it must be up to personal preference, but I am curious to learn what is your preferred product for b/w development? Brand and model.
I like ID-11/D-76 for HP5/Kentmere 400/APX400.

Development tanks
1) I was thinking about getting a tank that holds 2 - 35mm film rolls / 1 - 120 roll ? Do you think this is practical ? If so, do you fill the entire tank volume even if there is just one 35mm roll inside ?
That's what I have. At the bottom of the tank, you have the measurements for how much chemistry to use depending on what's inside the tank.

Other equipment
1. What do you think is the most practical setup to begin with ? For example, what volume graduated cylinders do you find most useful ( e.g.1 x 50mL + 1 x 500mL ?)
I like to have 1L ones (1 for each chemical) and I bought a small one that's usually used for drinks that has much smaller measurements for small quantities.

2. Is a thermometer useful for b/w development ?
A must!

3. Storage containers: do you prefer to store both developer and fixer in 5L containers ? I saw some sites that sell accordion bottles so that they are compressible to eliminate any empty space and adjust to different volumes. Are these bottles worth their value ?
I prefer 1L glass bottles. Accordion ones are pretty porous and hard to clean.

Waste management
1. I know that the fixer has Silver in it - have you found that these amounts are negligible or do you coordinate with local waste management to dispose of them ?
I dump the fixer in the public darkroom I use. Developer and stop bath go down the drain at home.

Happy developing! Warning: chances of getting addicted are high.

Click to expand...

Alex Benjamin said:

Side note: il y a une dizaine d'années, je suis brièvement passé par Orange en route vers Avignon, partant de Vaison-la-Romaine. Il y a de superbes photos à faire dans ce merveilleux coin de pays !

Click to expand...

Si vous repassez dans le coin, faites-moi signe. Je serais heureux d'organiser un apéritif pour vous montrer la chambre noire que je suis en train de construire.

Mike Bates said:

I buy developer in powder form mostly because both the film developer I prefer (XTOL) and the paper developer I prefer (Dektol) are only offered in powder form. I believe the powder form in the original sealed packaging has a longer shelf life than liquids, but I don't have any proof.



I use XTOL for film and Dektol for paper. Properly prepared and stored, they have good shelf life. They are not exotic developers. They are rock solid and give me great results. Once you get to know a little about a particular developer you like, you tend to stay with it. There are lots of other choices, but I'm happy with what I know.



I use acetic acid. It's cheap. It stores well. No brainer for me.

I've experimented with a water stop, and it seems to work pretty well, but why risk shortening the life of your fixer for something so easy and cheap as acetic acid.



I assume you're asking about tanks and reels. For roll films, I use and swear by good(!) stainless reels in stainless tanks. I don't care much about the brand of tank, but the reels must be Hewes or Nikor and they must be straight and undamaged. Spend an hour with a junk roll of film to practice loading the stainless reels in the daylight. After that, they'll load like a dream, wet or dry, forever. With stainless reels, you can tell by feel if the film is misloaded.

For 4x5, I use the Stearman SP-445 tank and sheet holders. For 8x10, the Stearman SP-8x10 or sometimes BTSZ tubes.


I use stainless tanks. They're cheap. I don't particularly care what brand. The plastic lids always break first, so I buy extra lids.

I use the correct size tank for what I'm developing. A single or double 35mm tank or a single, double, or triple 120 reel tank. I use the recommended amount of chemicals for each tank size.



Pick the tank size you plan to start with and let the required amount of chemicals be the guide. I use plastic graduated cylinders because they work and I don't need to be as careful with them when washing as I would with glass. High precision measuring isn't required for this step.



Absolutely required. Developers are more or less active depending on the temperature. You can properly develop film at almost any reasonable temperature, but you have to know the temperature.



I use fillable wine bags (one time fill) for my developer once it's mixed. They are 100 times better than the accordion bottles, but serve the same purpose: keep air out of the chemicals you want to store.



"The solution to pollution is dilution." Small amounts of fixer go down the drain with lots of water following. Large amounts go to the hazmat drop off site. XTOL is quite benign and can go down the drain with no worries. The same with acetic acid.

Click to expand...

Thanks I will probably go with stainless steel, and besides I prefer to avoid plastic when possible.
Just doing a cursory search, I've heard good things about Hewes reels (thought they seem like they might be a bit difficult to find here in France). What are some decent stainless steel tanks you would recommend ?

Daniela said:

Yes! One film, one developer to start. Then explore.

And since we're bombarding you with information, here's one more thing to consider: this free app as a timer

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, makes sense for consistency and keeping notes.

Some years ago I used to work as a biochemist, so I'm quite looking forward to getting back into experimenting and learning in a "lab" - but more creative. And perhaps introducing my son as he gets older (only 2.5 years old) now. As you touched on the addiction part, I much prefer to get him addicted to this beautiful and magical process, rather than a screen.

1. Powder kits can really last for quite a few years, but they can also be a bit of a pain to dissolve. Also, there are developers such as the popular D76 that are recommended to sit for at least 24 hours. This is definitely an inconvenience. On the other hand, liquid developers such as HC-110 and Rodinal have a very long shelf life in concentrated form and are very convenient to use.
2. Yes. Paper developers are too intensive for film development.
3. Personal preference. I do NOT use an acid stop bath, only a water bath.
4. I use really different developers, many of which I cook myself. If I have to say one - it's Pyrocat-HD.

I mainly work with just such a developing tank. It's convenient. In most cases - yes, I fill it. This saves a lot of trouble.

I have cylinders of 25 and 100 ml. I use the 25ml one the most. Also, I have quite a few laboratory beaker glasses. They are mandatory, as well as a thermometer
For containers, I usually use PET soda bottles. They are better.

aaronzomback said:

Waste management
1. I know that the fixer has Silver in it - have you found that these amounts are negligible or do you coordinate with local waste management to dispose of them ?

Click to expand...

i do 2 bath fixing and collect wasted fixer for waste management - silver should not go to the drain - you can't dilute it away - of course its only a little, but its easy to not do it, so why?
-> developer - xtol goes to the drain without hesitation - developer with hydrochinon also goes to waste management.

aaronzomback said:

What are some decent stainless steel tanks you would recommend ?

Click to expand...

Kindermann is a brand you'll find in Europe. They make/made stainless steel tanks and reels. They're fairly common, although a plastic Paterson is far easier to find, usually cheaper and works just as well.

Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride! You have loads of fun. Don't overthink or overcomplicate things for the moment; just get started and take it from there.

aaronzomback said:

What are some decent stainless steel tanks you would recommend ?

Click to expand...

I'm not particular. I often buy the stainless tanks used on ebay. I buy new/extra lids (Kalt, Samigan, etc.) from places like bhphoto.com.

Just a couple of opinions.
I wouldn't recommend Rodinal to start with, just go with the standards, D76 or ID 11 or XTOL.
I'd stay away from stainless steel tanks/rels. One tiny drop and they are deformed and can be very hard to load. I'd go with Patterson tanks and reels just remember to remove the ball bearings.
Our fixer does not contain enough silver to worry anything. I don't tip it down the sink though, I dilute it 50-50 with water and use it as a weed killewr.

Alex Benjamin said:

I don't know this one! I was going to suggest the Massive Dev Chart Timer, which is the one I use. Latest version is really practical, as it lets you adapt many parameters. I will download Dev it to compare.

Click to expand...

And I didn't know the MDC had an app....so I usually get info from their site and add it to the dev it app

aaronzomback said:

Si vous repassez dans le coin, faites-moi signe. Je serais heureux d'organiser un apéritif pour vous montrer la chambre noire que je suis en train de construire.

Click to expand...

Cool! Merci pour l'invitation!

aaronzomback said:

As you touched on the addiction part, I much prefer to get him addicted to this beautiful and magical process, rather than a screen.

Click to expand...

Absolutely!