A few fiber paper processing questions

I wonder if I fix and wash my fiber prints long enough.
Can I, after running a test strip through the below process, just put it back in developer and see if it darkens?
If there was any silver left on the paper shouldn't that get dark in the developer then?
How do I test for residual fixer?
If the stop bath stops developing completely, can I turn the lights on in the stop bath?

• Dektol 1+2, 2 mins
• Ilford Stop bath, don't time this, maybe 10-30 seconds
• Quick water rinse
• Moersch Alkaline Fixer, 1 min
• HCA, 2-5 minutes, I don't really time this
• Paterson print washer, 30 mins

You can test for residual fixer and silver with specific solutions. You can use a sodium sulfide solution, or selenium toner for residual silver. A drop on the border of the print should leave no stain. Likewise, the HT2 solution can be used for residual fixer, more details here.

go by the instructions / times listed on your paper for fixing
and washing ... and hypo clearing
the usual routine is dev>stop (or water ) > fix > RINSE > fix remover> final wash
agitation in EVERY STEP ... rinse steps --> fill and dump your tray
or use a siphon hose and make sure the prints move freely
i usually wash for at least 2x what the bottle recommends ... 20 fill and dumps at least
YMMV

My method for FB paper is Develop in Rollei 1/13 for 3 minutes, or, if using WT paper Fotospeed WT10 at 1/19 for 4 minutes, Stopbath, (Champion, in my case) for 1 minute, 2 bath fix in whatwver fier, I use either Champion amfix or Tetenal Suoer fix at 1/9 3 minutes each bath, Hypo Clear, (Kodak) for 5 minutes then wash in Patterson print washer for 1 hour, developer agitate for for first 20 seconds or so the every 30 seconds or so, all rest constant agitation,

What Anon said.

Don't guess. (It's good you're asking questions!) Don't copy what others are doing because they say it works for them. Test and see for yourself what works in your darkroom with your papers and your chemicals and your water supply and your technique.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/residual-hypo-test/

ericdan said:

I wonder if I fix and wash my fiber prints long enough.
Can I, after running a test strip through the below process, just put it back in developer and see if it darkens? If there was any silver left on the paper shouldn't that get dark in the developer then?

Click to expand...

Once in the fix, you prevent the developer from continuing action...trying to 'put it back in' only contaminates the developer

ericdan said:

If the stop bath stops developing completely, can I turn the lights on in the stop bath?

Click to expand...

Stop bath stops developer by neutralizing the developer, but the print is still light sensitive until it has been in a fixer long enough.

If you want to try both, to see what happens, just sacrifice a couple of prints to a test the next time you are in the darkroom!... You will learn far more by trying it yourself, than trying to remember what folks tell you via a forum! Just keep in mind that ANY solution from a later step should ordinarily NOT be carried backward to an earlier step of the sequence, due to 'contamination' of the earlier solution

• usual: A then B then C
• no-no: A then B then back to A, or A then B then C then back to A

...so after each test, you need to get fresh developer in the tray to use for a second test (rather than re-use contaminated developer in the tray)...just remember to use MINIMAL liquid in the tray for a test, so as not to destroy what might have been used to process 20 prints, you destroy what might have been used to process 2 prints via your 'mistake' test.

Follow instructions for your fixer, time each step and agitation in each step. You should wait until the end of the fixer before turning on the lights. Do not put the print (or test print) back in the developer!

As others have said, it is best to use tests for residual silver and hypo to test your particular workflow.

There are a couple of things to be aware of along the way. I'll address your questions one-at-a-time.

ericdan said:

I wonder if I fix and wash my fiber prints long enough.
Can I, after running a test strip through the below process, just put it back in developer and see if it darkens?
If there was any silver left on the paper shouldn't that get dark in the developer then?
How do I test for residual fixer?

Click to expand...

Fixer changes silver halides into soluble compounds that can be washed out through a number of intermediate steps. The intermediate compounds are insoluble but not light sensitive. In other words, if these remain in the paper or emulsion due to inadequate fixing, they won't develop out when exposed to light and placed in the developer. However, a test for residual silver like the Kodak ST-2 or the selenium toner tests mentioned above, will show them. So, use a proper test. The instructions for the test are found in the linked-to posts above but basically, you put a drop of test solution on a clear white part of a print or test strip and see if the spot discolors. Only a very faint discoloration is acceptable; no discoloration is preferable. Do research the correct testing procedure for the method you choose. FWIW, I like the selenium toner method since I have toner on hand always.

ericdan said:

If the stop bath stops developing completely, can I turn the lights on in the stop bath?

Click to expand...

Theoretically, yes. And you can then fix (in an acid fixer) and wash the film or paper and watch it clear in the fixer; a great learning experience if you haven't done it.
However, be careful when fixing with the lights on if you use an alkaline fix. Developer is only stopped in an acid stop bath and the carried-over developer can be reactivated in an alkaline environment. I know this from personal experience; i.e., fogged negatives from turning on the lights to early in TF-4 fixer. Don't try this with your Moersch alkaline fixer!

ericdan said:

• Dektol 1+2, 2 mins
• Ilford Stop bath, don't time this, maybe 10-30 seconds
• Quick water rinse
• Moersch Alkaline Fixer, 1 min
• HCA, 2-5 minutes, I don't really time this
• Paterson print washer, 30 mins

Click to expand...

A couple of comments about your processing work-flow:

First, stop for 30 seconds minimum.

Next, a water rinse before most fixing baths is unnecessary. Even alkaline fixers are formulated to be used with a stop bath (Moersch sells a citric-acid stop). Check the product instructions to be sure. I think you can eliminate a step and save some time.

Be aware when using short (1 minute) fixing times and strong fixers with fiber-base papers (a lá Ilford) that the capacity of the fixer is rather small. If you are processing for optimum permanence, it is only about 10 8x10 prints per liter of fix. Commercial standards (or general-purpose standards as they are also called) gets you up to 30 8x10s or so per liter, but not processed to "archival" standards. A more economical approach is two-bath fixing. Do some research on this if you are interested. Just keep in mind that if you are processing 30+ 8x10s in a liter of fix one-bath that the last 20 are less-than-optimum-permanence.

If you use HCA, be sure to agitate! Times vary by manufacturer; Ilford recommends 10 minutes for its archival sequence, Kodak only 3 minutes for double-weight fiber-base paper. There are different processing strategies at work here: Ilford uses the longer wash-aid bath to reduce washing times, Kodak relies on a longer wash. FWIW I use the longer times for both steps.

Washing time depends on your water, the temperature and how long you have fixed (i.e., how saturated the paper base has become). Therefore it is really best to test your specific workflow. Get the HT-2 test kit and do a test run, pulling test strips from the washer starting too early and then at regular intervals till you get an adequate wash. Then you can add a generous safety margin and be confident your prints are being washed adequately. Personally, I like 60 minutes.

Best,

Doremus

Regarding the idea of repeat developing to see if it darkens. First, in the case of typical "normal" paper developers these are much stronger than typical film developer, this means that what takes film 5 - 10 minutes to occur happens much faster with paper, 2 - 3 minutes seems typical for fiber papers. Second, typical paper is developed to completion, this means that when processed to the manufacturers recommendations full development occurs and no further image darkening would occur if development was prolonged. Note that I am referring to regular paper in regular developer, with special papers, and special developer formulae and dilutions, development may well not be to completion, but those are not typical materials, they are custom variants chosen for a specific purpose. So the answer to your question, will the print darken, is no, if the instructions have been followed development is already complete. This is unlike film, where the development is NOT to completion. Film development is arrested when a certain contrast and speed have been achieved, if film development is prolonged this WILL cause an increase in film opacity.

If the fixer didn’t work at all, then putting a badly fixed print back in developer would darken it. But the greater risk is insufficient washing and for that a “residual hypo test” can prove how good your wash is.

Follow the Ilford website instructions. You will not have a problem.

The Ilford instructions are drastically shorter than what everyone is recommending here.

1. Fix 1 min (what I was initially doing)
2. first wash 5 mins running water
3. HCA for 10 mins
4. second wash for 5 mins

ericdan said:

The Ilford instructions are drastically shorter than what everyone is recommending here.

1. Fix 1 min (what I was initially doing)
2. first wash 5 mins running water
3. HCA for 10 mins
4. second wash for 5 mins

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that this assumes film strength fixer (1+4 dilution).

I use 1+ 5 for both film and paper as described on the bottle of Moersch ATS Fixer.
I hope that 1 min is enough. I've been fixing many many prints for a generous minute. So far they seem OK.

ericdan said:

I wonder if I fix and wash my fiber prints long enough.
Can I, after running a test strip through the below process, just put it back in developer and see if it darkens?
If there was any silver left on the paper shouldn't that get dark in the developer then?
How do I test for residual fixer?
If the stop bath stops developing completely, can I turn the lights on in the stop bath?

• Dektol 1+2, 2 mins
• Ilford Stop bath, don't time this, maybe 10-30 seconds
• Quick water rinse
• Moersch Alkaline Fixer, 1 min
• HCA, 2-5 minutes, I don't really time this
• Paterson print washer, 30 mins

Click to expand...

here my recommended 'archival' processing instructions for FB paper

ericdan said:

I use 1+ 5 for both film and paper as described on the bottle of Moersch ATS Fixer.
I hope that 1 min is enough. I've been fixing many many prints for a generous minute. So far they seem OK.

Click to expand...

The Moersch ATS as per instructions on the bottle and web page (http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/41/ats_schnellfixierbad_alkalisch) is intended to be used at a dilution 1+5 - 1+10 for both paper and film. Ilford HP5+ clears in less than a minute with a dilution 1+10 @ 21C.

I have been to a workshop by Wolfgang Moersch and he fixes paper in his ATS fixer for minimum one minute at a dilution 1+10, with an A-B fixer though.
You might want to think about using a A+B fixer.

If you are in reasonable doubt of your process, apply a residual hypo and a residual silver test after processing a print. That´s the only way to get a definite answer if your process is archival or not.

read the bottle of fixer for its capacity.
after you put prints through your fixer
you will eventually need to fix for more time..

ericdan said:

The Ilford instructions are drastically shorter than what everyone is recommending here.

1. Fix 1 min (what I was initially doing)
2. first wash 5 mins running water
3. HCA for 10 mins
4. second wash for 5 mins

Click to expand...

Anon Ymous said:

Keep in mind that this assumes film strength fixer (1+4 dilution).

Click to expand...

Ilford's "Optimum Permanence Sequence" is based on the idea that you use a strong ("film-strength") fix for a short time, thus preventing fixer and the associated fixing byproducts from penetrating deep into the paper base. If you prevent the paper from soaking up fixer, you can wash for a shorter time. Using a long wash-aid bath also shortens wash time. Ilford has presumably tested this sequence, but likely with their own products; i.e., not with Moersch chemistry and not with papers other than Ilford's.

I don't use the Ilford sequence for several reasons: First, I'm skeptical about just how efficient and effective it really is. Second, it seems predicated on a one-bath fixing regime, which is pretty wasteful given that the fixer capacity for "optimum permanence" given by Ilford is only 10 8x10s per liter. Exceeding this results in less-than-optimum permanence. Trying to divide the one minute fixing time between two baths gets unwieldy rather quickly, especially with larger prints with longer drain times. What about those drain times? Do we include that in the total fixing time or should it be extra? If we include it in the total time, then a 16x20 print, that takes 15-20 seconds to stop dripping would only get 40-45 seconds of fixing with agitation in the solution with a one bath regime; with two baths only 20-30 seconds... And, if you overshoot that one-minute time, how much more saturated does the paper base get? And how much longer do I have to increase my wash time to compensate for an extra 15-30 seconds?

I figure that after about 90 seconds in the fix, the paper base is fully saturated with fixer and thus needs a longer wash time anyway, so I use Kodak's recommended sequence but increase the time in the wash aid and extend washing just to be sure. For me, it's two fixing baths at "paper strength" (capacity 36 8x10s per liter of bath 1) followed by toning, wash aid for 10 minutes (or longer) and then a minimum 60 minute wash (get rid of those optical brighteners!). I test the last print through the fix and into the washer for both residual silver and hypo and they pass with flying colors. I'm happy with the longer times.

The main thing, however, is that you test your workflow to make sure you are getting the level of permanence you desire. ST-1 or selenium toner for residual silver and HT-2 for residual hypo.

Best,

Doremus

Anon Ymous said:

You can test for residual fixer and silver with specific solutions. You can use a sodium sulfide solution, or selenium toner for residual silver. A drop on the border of the print should leave no stain. Likewise, the HT2 solution can be used for residual fixer, more details here.

Click to expand...

Residual Fixer Testing kit I can buy from photoformulary . I'd mix it up myself but can't find silver nitrate here in Tokyo.
For the residual silver test, what's the sodium sulfide ratio to water I need to use for this solution?

ericdan said:

Residual Fixer Testing kit I can buy from photoformulary . I'd mix it up myself but can't find silver nitrate here in Tokyo.
For the residual silver test, what's the sodium sulfide ratio to water I need to use for this solution?

Click to expand...

The ST-1 test solution is 2g Na2S in 125ml of water, and this makes a stock solution, which keeps for about 3 months. The working solution is a 1+9 dilution of the stock and keeps for about a week. At this point, it becomes rather obvious that this thing doesn't keep well. If you happen to have Kodak's Rapid Selenium Toner, you can make a 1+9 solution and test with that. The great advantage of it is that it keeps far better, basically indefinitely. The dilution isn't very critical, other dilutions can be used as well and obviously other brands of selenium toner.

Finally, one useful detail about the HT-2 residual hypo test. This thing will stain anything if left for enough time. Judge the stain after the 2' and rinse the print under test if you want to keep it as clean as possible. If you don't do so, you'll get a dense spot after enough time.

I find the selenium toner test for residual silver easier since I always have stock Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner on hand. Here are the instructions according to Kodak:

Using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner as a Residual-Silver Test
Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+9 with water (according to Tech Pub. J-1, 1973, p.41. Undiluted KRST may be better; there's a thread about it here on Photrio somewhere, but I can't find it and my old link doesn't work.)
1. Place a drop of the diluted solution on a squeegeed, white margin of a print or a clear part of film.
2. Wait two to three minutes; then wipe off the drop with a clean blotter or cloth. Any discoloration other than a slight cream tint indicates the presence of silver. Refix and rewash if this is film or paper you want to keep.

Best,

Doremus

wiltw said:

Once in the fix, you prevent the developer from continuing action...trying to 'put it back in' only contaminates the developer



Stop bath stops developer by neutralizing the developer, but the print is still light sensitive until it has been in a fixer long enough.

If you want to try both, to see what happens, just sacrifice a couple of prints to a test the next time you are in the darkroom!... You will learn far more by trying it yourself, than trying to remember what folks tell you via a forum! Just keep in mind that ANY solution from a later step should ordinarily NOT be carried backward to an earlier step of the sequence, due to 'contamination' of the earlier solution

• usual: A then B then C
• no-no: A then B then back to A, or A then B then C then back to A

...so after each test, you need to get fresh developer in the tray to use for a second test (rather than re-use contaminated developer in the tray)...just remember to use MINIMAL liquid in the tray for a test, so as not to destroy what might have been used to process 20 prints, you destroy what might have been used to process 2 prints via your 'mistake' test.

Click to expand...

Correct but, how long is long enough? to be save, don't turn on the white lights until fixing is done. realistically, a good minute in the fixer is long enough but why the rush? are you Dr. Richard Kimble?

I ordered photographer's formulary residual fixer testing kit.
for the silver test i'll mix up the solution myself. Sodium sulfide is readily available in stores here.

One question I had regarding the silver test. Isn't sodium sulfide the main ingredient in HCA?
Would that not mean that my prints should already stain in the HCA if there was residual silver?

Sodium Sulfite not sulfide is what HCA is mostly comprised of.

I like to keep things simple. I mix Ilford rapid fix 1+9 and fix until the next print goes through which is a few minutes, then the print goes in a bath of sulfite and later into the wash when I am all done. I don't usually make that many prints in the course of a session, so the 1+9 is fine. Never had any problems with staining and I do a lot of toning. I usually let the prints soak overnight after a few rinses, but I am thinking about not doing that anymore. It works to get the prints clear, but I can get curly edges at times. The overnight soak was recommended by David Vestal who said it eliminated any trace of fix. YMMV

Patrick Robert James said:

Sodium Sulfite not sulfide is what HCA is mostly comprised of.

I like to keep things simple. I mix Ilford rapid fix 1+9 and fix until the next print goes through which is a few minutes, then the print goes in a bath of sulfite and later into the wash when I am all done. I don't usually make that many prints in the course of a session, so the 1+9 is fine. Never had any problems with staining and I do a lot of toning. I usually let the prints soak overnight after a few rinses, but I am thinking about not doing that anymore. It works to get the prints clear, but I can get curly edges at times. The overnight soak was recommended by David Vestal who said it eliminated any trace of fix. YMMV

Click to expand...

great advice from David Vestal;stick to it!