A cry for help - vertical "stripes" on my negs

Kim Catton · Jul 31, 2006

I just developed a roll of Foma 100 classic 120 (medium format).

I used Adox aph 09 in 8 minutes and used a water-stop-bath for approx 1.5 minutes. Then fixed in 1:3 fixer. washed in water and then a little agepon.

The one thing that didn't go quiet as planned is the negs being thin. The other thing, the thing that really concerns me is this:

All the way down the negs you can see sort of a "running" pattern of something. What can this be? I used my scanner to upload a sample neg for you to see and even on this scan it´s quiet obvious that something is wrong. Its the Vertical "stripes" I´m talking about. Help anyone ?

Regards, kim

Hans Borjes · Jul 31, 2006

What kind of tank did you use? Rotation technique?

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 31, 2006

If the film travel in this camera is horizontal (the streaks are perpendicular to the length of the film), I'd say this looks like an agitation problem or an issue with filling the tank. It may help to presoak the film before developing and/or to try a different agitation method.

Kino · Jul 31, 2006

Looks like the film was shot during a period of high humidity prior to being processed and was stored for some time rolled up; looks like the emulsion stuck lightly to the base of the film and then dried to form the marks. The direction of the marks is probably the direction of the film advance and smeared the droplets across the surface of the emulsion.

Any chance this film was frozen and not thawed totally prior to shooting?

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 31, 2006

Kim Catton said:
I just developed a roll of Foma 100 classic 120 (medium format).

I used Adox aph 09 in 8 minutes and used a water-stop-bath for approx 1.5 minutes. Then fixed in 1:3 fixer. washed in water and then a little agepon...

Regards, kim

Looks like uneven development with possibly some bromide drag.

I assume that Adox APH09 is the same as Fomadon R09 (and is thus a concentrated P-Aminophenol developer)???

What developer dilution did you use?

What was the developer temperature?

Did you presoak the film in water before development?

What agitation technique did you use?

bill schwab · Jul 31, 2006

I've had this before. In my case it was the film sticking slightly to the paper base rolled in with the film. I tried many fixes and nothing worked. If this was part of a larger batch of film stored the same, I am guessing it will all be like this. I also had suspicions it was a manufacturing defect.

Bill

Ronald Moravec · Jul 31, 2006

too long a development time-way too dense. The streaks are from insufficient agitation are are bromide drag. Random and somewhat vigorous agitation is the ticket.

Invert and twist is one method. Another is 5 inversions in 5 sec and 1/4 turn when you set it down. There ate lots of others.

Markok765 · Jul 31, 2006

agitation! that happened to me once! now i use the stick taht you turn with the paterson tanks.
I wish you beautiful light

Kim Catton · Aug 1, 2006

Agiation, fabrication error, stored badly...

What looks to be the problem? someone mentioned that the agiation might not be right. The temparature of all the chemicals was 20 degrees. Any chance it could be the fixer? If it is the agiation..then..then...hmm, I can't really explain my method of agiation on text :S How is it suppose to be done. Is there one agiation method that can be used as a good standard for every developement?

regards, kim.

(I hear a lot of you talking about soaking the film in water before developing? how and why is this done?)

John Bragg · Aug 1, 2006

Hi kim, Pre soaking is something I have always done to bring the film and tank to the same temperature as the dev, and also to wet the emulsion and help to avoid air bells. Many folks do without it, and have no problems, but it has always been part of my method.
Re; the marks on your film, is this the first time you have encountered such marks, or have you had them before ? Agitation is not normally an issue with Rodinal Type developers, many people using minimal agitation successfuly. The neg also looks very dense. What dilution are you using ?
Regards, John

Kim Catton · Aug 1, 2006

The Negs have scanned using a normal flatbed scanner, not a neg-scanner :O) so the density cant really be seen on the thumb. It was just to demonstrate the marks/stripes... actually the negs are very very thin, which is also a problem. Dillution 1:40.

(how is the pre-soaking done?)

Fotohuis · Aug 1, 2006

The right developing time for 1+40 Fomadon R09 and Fomapan 100 is about 6-7 minutes. It will be not so easy for you to develop the film last week end at 20 degrees C in Danmark due to the high temperatures last week. Further you are not using a stop bath so your development time is not very accurate in the time schedule of 8 minutes.
At least three reasons why your negative tends to a too high density.

When having a closer look at your negative and convert it to a positive I do not think it's a bromide drag problem also not because this is a rather uncommon type of failure in a para-amino phenol developer type but of course I could be wrong.

It looks more like the film emulsion stuck lightly to the base of the film and then dried to form the marks or you had problems in loading the film on the reel.

About the pre-soaking: A lot of different opinions.

With a regular film (like this Fomapan 100) and a non rotating development method for B&W I do not see any advantages to do it.
When using a depth developer or a film with a strong anti-halation layer (e.g. R3) or a Jobo rotation development I am sure there are advantages to do it.
For a common development there will be hardly any differences and it's an extra step to do it.

Take also care of the dust. Your negative is full of dust particles, maybe caused by the scan.

Maybe you can give us some more details how this 120 roll film was used, exposed, stocked, loaded in the Paterson reel and developed. It's better to figure it out now and to get the right feeling/method for developing for an unexperienced user.

Best regards,

Robert

Kim Catton · Aug 1, 2006

The neg is scanned using flatbed just to demonstrate. dust is from scanner.

Here is what I did:

1: in total darkness unrolled the film which has been stores in the refrigtiator. Seperated it from the backing paper. Left the little piece of "tape" on the film.

2: rolled in unto the wheel. At first attempt it failed. unrolled. Rolled it back on.

3: put the reel in my peterson tank. put on the lit and then "the second lit"

4: made sure that the water I was using was held on 20 degrees (using ice and cold water)

5: diluted 14.5 ml of developer (R09) with 580 ml of water.

6: added the solution to the tank. "turned it up and down" carefully for 30 sec. the gave it a slight "bang" into the table to prevent bubbles of air. "turned it up and down" for 5 sec. every 3 sec. did this for 7 min.

7: took the dilution out. replaced with water. turned it aroud for 1 minute.

8: took out the water. added fixer (Superfix something, 1:3 dilution with water = 580 ml) "turned it up and down " every 30 sec for 10 sec. did thisfor 4 min.

9:took it out. Let water ran through the tank for 1 min. Emptied the tank. filled it again. up and down 5 times - new water - 10 times - new water - 15 times - new water - 20 times - new water - 25 times.

10: washed the film with water and 2 drops of agepon. dried it with hairdryer (maybe set on a too warm setting?)

11: noticed some "dents" in the surface of the film. washed again. dried again. no "dents".

12: ended up with very thin negatives (Clear as glass at some highlights) and the "stripes" Im talking about.

regards, kim

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 1, 2006

Kim Catton said:
1: in total darkness unrolled the film which has been stores in the refrigtiator. Seperated it from the backing paper. Left the little piece of "tape" on the film.

Was the film stored in an airtight bag or container, and did you let it return to room temperature before unrolling it? If not, then this may be the problem. Moisture could form on the film and cause it to adhere to the paper.

I normally wouldn't think a presoak was necessary for 120 film with a dilute developer as you are using, but since you're having a problem, it might be a solution. The time is not critical, but start with water the same temperature as the developer and soak for 2 minutes, agitating for the first 10 seconds of each minute. If a presoak helps, something in the range of 2-5 minutes would be normal.

Fotohuis · Aug 1, 2006

I 've noticed also your PM, thanks.

Point1) is suspicious: If you have not sealed your 120 roll film and in the fridge was a lot of humidity this has caused your 'stripe' problem.

Point 6) starting is OK. Agitation is too much for this developer type so that's why your negatives are overall too dense. Suggestion every 30 seconds 2 times, slowly. --> Negatives will be less dense and your grain will be less but this last feature is specific for an para-amino phenol developer. (Rodinal, Fomadon R09, Calbe R09/ADOX )

Point 10) NEVER use a hair dryer to speed up the drying of the film. Dust particles are 'injected' in the soft wet emulsion of the film. Simply dry it on your room temperature at 22 degrees C. Also the Foma film will have much less curling then. Use the regular film weight article to keep it straight.

Point 12) Highlights or shadows? We are talking about the NEGATIVE. If the shadows (so light on the negative) are not very well, pull this Fomapan 100 film to iso 64 or 80. It's not uncommon you will loose 'some speed' in this R09 developer. It also depends on the light conditions during your shooting (high/low contrast situation).

I am sure your next Fomapan 100 film will be OK then when following these guidelines.

best regards,

Robert

Kim Catton · Aug 1, 2006

thx alot. as soon as I shout my next roll. Today I think, I will let you know what happened.

again: Thanks, you guys at Apug are great!

tommy5c · Aug 1, 2006

If i'm correct you noticed the stains after drying. Did you Photo-flo the nevatives and let them hang dry? the hair dryer may have left water marks on the negative. I know someitmes in my excitment i have forgotten to photo-flo and ended up with streaks and water spots

A cry for help - vertical "stripes" on my negs

Kim Catton

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