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A Christmas Cookie from Santa

Ron:

Having seen the draft in January, here's my opinion FWIW.

Use high quality graphs and charts, thats the data. Use color where it's needed. Make it something people will read, study and enjoy as I will.

Joe
 
Thanks Joe. Maybe I'll have 2 versions. Economy and 1st class. Just like airlines. But no search beforehand!

PE
 
This is the best decision but will be the economy class , istanbul to delhi with arabian airlines or istanbul to los angeles with british airways ?
 
Mustafa:

How about the old Orient Express from Istalbul to Paris?

Joe
 
Photo Engineer said:
Thanks Joe. Maybe I'll have 2 versions. Economy and 1st class. Just like airlines. But no search beforehand!

PE
Click to expand...

If I agreed to get groped, would I get the 1st class version for the Economy version cost? :confused:

Steve
 
Photo Engineer said:
OMG. I think I might refuse to sell you a copy !!!!!
Click to expand...

Refuse sending a copy to the Quite Ghastly Quarrelsome Gnome , but please send one to me sans grope!

Steve
 
I'm beginning to regret both this thread and the title. You know, writing a book is not all it is cracked up to be, nor is it very easy. In any event, a lot of people are saying "where is it". Well, there are several dozen people out there who have seen draft VII of the book and have held it in their hands or read portions of it.

In any event, after review by 5 of my peers there are several major enhancements that they feel should be added and are under consideration for being added. These added items is via private communication and is over and above the editing they did on what already exists.

1. More on sensitometry and densitometry.

2. Maybe something on system design and optimization < make comments guys and gals!

3. Stirring, Mixing and Homogenizing

4. Chloro-Bromides < I ignore these and feel that they are too hard for starters

6. More detail in some sections regarding the chemistry of the stuff I do describe

Well, you see the point. I have scoped this out and it will add another 50 or so pages. I do agree that it will make a better book especially #1 and #2.

As an added item, having just taught another workshop, I feel that a rewrite of the formulas would help in clarity as some students had trouble with the format. I have changed it several times over the last 5 years of workshops and the latest was closest to the book. I don't like it and the students asked more questions.

Just tacking this on to the thread FYI.

PE
 
Ron:

Save some stuff for the Revised Edition. No matter what else you put into the first edition, people will clamor for extras that you can't think of now.

I used to tell the kids that turning their paper in was more important than having it perfect.

Charley
 
IMHO,

1. Don't use your time explaining sensitometry and densitometry. It's the material found in any basic book.
2. Sounds interesting.
3. Sounds very good.
4. Skip that if you feel that it's too hard. General principles like 2) and 3) are always more important than specific topics, which are infinite in number.
6. Details on chemistry sound good. Many sources omit details which make them very tedious to reproduce.

So I'd say, use your time for 2, 3 and 6.

And then, seriously consider that BW/color/printing quality thing. No matter what people say in this thread, it will be a fact that a $100 price increase WILL lower the sales considerably, and WILL increase the threshold to start emulsion making with your book. I'm sure you are not doing a children's picture book here, but a product that will enable as many as possible to find the joys of emulsion making, and give some high-quality, real information thereof. Also, it will probably be kind of scientific book. So, use color as extra only if it is possible without making a huge sacrifice.

All the best, keep your emulsions stirring!
 
I want it all, especially if it provides a larger knowledge base from which we can either design or recreate emulsions as needed. I am also more than willing to pay the extra cost for a larger book, or a set (a vol. 1 and vol. 2 , perhaps?)

Bob M.
 
#1 - Definitely skip densitometery and sensitometry - tell people to buy a copy of Todd and Zakia's "Photographic sensitometry: the study of tone reproduction" for a thorough, in-depth book on the subject.

#2 - Good.

#3 - Doubleplusgood.

#4 - Some coverage should be made, but perhaps save an indepth coverage of it for Vol #2.

#6 (or is that really #5 ;^)) - You know I love chemistry so I can't say no to that. But don't make it too indepth that it detreacts from the subject at hand - making emulsions.
 
#2 and #6 would be my top priorities, if any. The issue with #1 is that it presupposes that the home emulsion maker is going to have a densitometer. I think probably many do not. If #4 is too hard; perhaps it should come as an addendum later, a value added appendix. I think #3 runs a close third.

I think you have posted in the past that you considered posting in serial form. I could see how that would turn into more trouble than its worth, however, at least some more documentation on mixing, the underlying chemistry, and optimisaion of design (which presumable could come later) might not require as much lab time and expense for you. I'm (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that this information is more regurgitating expertise, not working out @ home recipes suitable for, well, me.
 


I like ideas #2 and #6 the most.

Not sure what to comment on #2 though!



Just be aware of feature creep
 
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I would be interested in topics 6, 2, and 3 in that order. (I have only played w/ pre-made liquid emulsion - never made my own)

As far as the price/format opinions that people are throwing around...I'll dip my toe into those waters as well.

I think that you have two camps interested in your book: Group #1 being composed of Hard-core emulsion, chemistry, alt process junkies and Group #2 made up of emulsion beginners and more casual darkroom workers. You could probably double your current price point and group #1 would still purchase it. Group #2, being more casual about the entire subject would probably take a pass on the book if the price is too high. I would assume that group #2 offers more profit potential so I wouldn't price them out of the market.

How about breaking your book up into two volumes. Volume 1 could cover some of the more basic/fundamental topics needed to successfully make an emulsion (culminating in several emulsion formulas). Make Volume 1 w/ basic B&W photos and price it so it would appeal to a casual darkroom user. Volume 2 could cover all of the more advanced topics and techniques (chemistry, methods, etc.) that appeal to hard core emulsion fans...go all out on this one and price it accordingly. This way you have an emulsion book that appeals to a wider audience as well as an optional 2nd volume that doesn't dumb it down for the advanced emulsion afficionados.

Assuming that this two volume idea is not going to work (I sounds like the format is pretty much set) I would try to make the book as affordable as you can (I think that you will sell more). You could always sell a DVD/CD-ROM separately and place a menu on it w/ all the color photos that coorespond the B&W photos in the book. Those that want the color can pay extra for the DVD/cd.

I've already set aside a little stash to buy your book when it is available so it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me (color or B&W, I'm still buying it), but I think you will definately move more books if you price it cheaper.
 
One more thing, Personally I would be willing to pay more for a Hardcover - they seem to last much longer. Back when I was in school I always felt ripped off when I payed $100+++ for a trade paperback textbook. Somehow the Hardcover made the price a bit more tolerable
 
Yeah, I see the problems.

If I do a comb bound book with a soft cover, it might not last long for the hard core enthusiasts, but the DR junkies might use it in the lab as a lab tutorial right on the bench where they work. Such a book would be about $50 - $75 depending on how much color I need in it. Hardbound is out of sight. They are a step above what I have seen for soft cover due to the binding needed.

Regarding the organization OTOH, the two groups suggest to me that I divide the book into 3 parts. Part I (general instructions and information for all), Part II (formulas for all) and Part III (appendices with hard core information). I was already tending in that direction if you look at the OP here, but this feedback is making me feel that it is better to reorganize as I describe here with more vigor.

PE
 


Yes Ron, writing is difficult and has little reward until you finish, which you feel (about now) you never will. My first wife was a librarian and we knew several authors and the consensus was unanimous. When the book was expected by the public it was only worse. Plus, these were fiction authors. A technical book is even more difficult. Then you have a worldwide public bulletin board that keeps nagging you.

Your peer review panel is excellent, please remember they are probably all PhD level chemists or the equivalent by their experience. 99.995% of the readers aren’t. I’m pretty good at chemistry but my eyes glazed over a couple of times in the workshop when the conversation took off into the stratosphere.

I have a densitometer and know how to use it from a past job at a motion picture lab. A section on sensitometry and densitometry would help me so I knew why I was doing what I was doing.

System design, why a film or paper needs to act and react the way it does, is helpful, but not as critical to me as other information. Perhaps, as I learn more I will see that I need this information more.

On stirring, mixing and homogenizing, I feel most of us out here are lucky to have a stirring hot plate. I guess I need the book to understand the use and need.

Chlorobromides, you say you ignore these as they are too hard for beginners. True. However, diligent study of your book and experimentation in the darkroom one will not always be a beginner. Granted I have made exactly two batches to date. Batch two ran exactly as you described in Rochester with no problems. Will batch three? I expect it will, following good practices and methods. Am I an expert? No, but I’m trying (sometimes very trying).

More information on what happened and why things work is always helpful. I don’t know what else to say about this point.

On the formula I reworked it for myself after the workshop so I had the information all together. I’ll email you a copy for your review and comments.

Those are my thoughts for what their worth,

All the best

Joe
 
Joe;

Thanks for the excellent comments. You met three of the reviewers at the workshop in Rochester, Mark (of course), Bob and Martin. At least two more agreed to join us for the following workshops. So we will have all 5 reviewers present to answer questions or otherwise look on when they drop in.

PE
 
I think that two-tiered pricing is necessary, that's all I'll say about that. It seems like a no-brainer. You have a limited, balls-to-the-walls edition that has a premium price tag for collectors and you have the bare-bones worker's edition.

I think that specific issues of densitometry that relate to emulsion making could/should be addressed, but an in depth discussion is not necessary, is it? A good "further reading" section could probably eliminate the need for a chapter on densitometry altogether.

What exactly do you mean by design system and optimization?

I think that if there are things that don't get covered extensively in the book, they should at least be mentioned and again, perhaps suggest literature that does cover them. You'd hate to completely ignore something, thinking it'll be covered in the next edition and what if something happens in the interim? I think it's good to mention things, to at least get it in writing and leave it up to the reader to dig deeper. A reference book, a history book or a technical book should provide as many avenues of research as possible, at the expense of "teasing" the reader if necessary.

*lastly* I agree with the comment that you should have at least a couple non-scientist types review it. You big brains you... you'll all get together and notice that the chemical conversion of A to B is missing an ion and a couple atoms here and over there... but you'll probably miss the fact that you've never explained the meaning of X or Y in the first place. Plus, readability, style, flow have little to do with technical knowledge. If you need any volunteers... I know a guy.

 
Chris;

I'll let you read a copy when you visit Rochester. At least as much as you can during breaks!

PE
 
I think you have a real chance to provide otherwise unavailable information that would otherwise be lost to time. I'm of the opinion that such information should take priority. Anything already available (to the general public/your readers) in a detailed manner should be a lower priority to this. I just think you need to give some pointers on recommended reading and prerequisites so that information would be more 'useable'

I mean, there's no sense in reinventing the wheel right? Unless all the other wheels up until now have been square
 
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