A Buridane's ass - Century Graphic or Pressman C?

eumenius · Sep 5, 2007

Hello friends,
I am in a silly situation: my father wants to give me a 2x3" folding camera as a 30th birthday gift (my idea!) so I would be able to shoot outdoors with it, with small sheet film of course So I have two choices: Busch Pressman C with 101/4.5 Ektar, rangefinder and spring back, or a nearly minty Century Graphic with a 2x3 knob winding back, couple of film holders, Graflok back (of course) and dreaded Graftar 103/4.5 without a rangefinder. To ask it simpler, what system should I choose? If the Century has forward front tilt as well as backward tilt, I am on its side. Busch is cheaper, of course. I would be shooting using a tripod, for anything requiring mobility I've got my faithful Mamiya C330

A hint, please! I am nearly torn apart already by contradictions ))

Zhenya the Overloaded

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 5, 2007

Considering that it is the lens is what records the image you see, I'd go for the Busch with the Ektar.

eumenius · Sep 5, 2007

You are right - but how about rollfilm backs, eh? The better-than-Graftar lens can be acquired later for not too big a price, but the spring back is like a hunch - forever, I mean

TheFlyingCamera said:
Considering that it is the lens is what records the image you see, I'd go for the Busch with the Ektar.

Ole · Sep 5, 2007

I would choose the Graphic - and look around for a better lens.

k_jupiter · Sep 5, 2007

If I remember correctly, you don't get your dream of front and rear tilt. I believe the way you get front tilt (at least on a 4x5) is to drop the bed and use the rise. I don't remember the exact setup on my 2x3 Speed.

Iffum I was you, I would get the Century or nothing at all. I don't know what you think you are going to gain with the Press camera over your C330. If you are going to go to the trouble of a press camera, at least get the real estate, 4x5 or 5x7.

tim in san jose

Dan Fromm · Sep 5, 2007

Zhenya, I'm with Ole. Graphics are much better supported than Busch cameras. As you know, I use Graphics. As you don't know, my first 2x3 camera was a Pressman C. I sold it and went Graphic. 'nuff said?

And I don't care what you say about using 2x3 film, there's a roll holder in your future. A Graflok back is much better for this than a spring back.

To Tim's point, among press cameras what matters is how big Zhenya is going to print. 2x3s are a lot smaller and lighter than the larger ones, have lower running costs too. I don't know if you've noticed it, but Zhenya has a genius for finding very good lenses for incredibly little money. I don't know if he can get lenses for Mamiya TLRs at such good prices, but I doubt he'll want to use only a normal lens for very long.

Reports on the dread Graftar and its brother the Graflar aren't all that consistent, but one thing that leaps out of them is the consensus that from f/11 or f/16 down they're very usable.

Cheers,

Dan

Zhenya, any suggestions on what to do with my Uran-27? The wretched thing seems completely unusable and isn't big enough to serve as a doorstop.

jd callow · Sep 5, 2007

Ole said:
I would choose the Graphic - and look around for a better lens.

ditto.

k_jupiter · Sep 5, 2007

Of course Dan, I am one to talk. I have the 2x3 Crown, the 2x3 speed, the C220 with 5 lens, the 3x4 speed, the 4x5 speed, the rb67 (or two), a half dozen folders... etc, etc.

I wouldn't walk away from it because of the lens. A 127 Ektar is just around the corner. Maybe you should look for a 2x3 Speed instead? The FPS would give your knack of aquiring lens a quick kick in the pants.

Find yourself a 105 Tessar from some defunct plate camera in Compur mount. Cement the focus down in infinity and you'll have a dang nice lens for your new Century.

tim in san jose

eumenius · Sep 5, 2007

That's what I think - my father is ready to either of the solutions, because you can understand how I tried to involve him in making decisions, too he simply says - Zhenya, take the money and shut up pleeeeease

The Graphic looks much tastier, so I will concentrate on it - after all, the better lens should not be all this expensive and difficult to find in this focal length?

Cheers,
Zhenya

Ole said:
I would choose the Graphic - and look around for a better lens.

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 5, 2007

eumenius said:
You are right - but how about rollfilm backs, eh? The better-than-Graftar lens can be acquired later for not too big a price, but the spring back is like a hunch - forever, I mean

I found it quite easy to put a Graflock back on my 2x3 Busch (finding a back was the difficult part.

However, I strongly prefer my 2x3 Crown Graphic and The Mamiya RB 6x7 rollfilm backs fit the Graflock.

I have a 105 Color Skopar and a 105 Fujinon - love both of them!

eumenius · Sep 5, 2007

Dan,

thank you for your advice - I am really pleased to hear that I am on a right way The 105 lens shouldn't be a real issue to find, unless I want some kind of star from sky (and that won't fit in closed camera for sure ).

I have a full C330 lens system - for cheap, by the way. That's the Nature's way of compensating me for a miserable salary with PhD diploma in pocket And I've also got a REAL press camera - the Mark VIII MPP in perfect state, with Symmar Convertible 150/265 - it's somehow heavy for outdoors fun, on my opinion )

A 105 ancient Tessar, yes... or my fine pre-war 90/6.8 Angulon, or maybe even 150/6.3 Eagle-eye Tessar? Or 150/6.3 Fujinon-W, also small and good enough? He-he, a wide field for experiments

And what's wrong with that Ur-Anus-27? Why isn't it usable - I have forgotten the story due to long absence?

Cheers from Moscow,
Zhenya

Dan Fromm said:
Zhenya, I'm with Ole. Graphics are much better supported than Busch cameras. As you know, I use Graphics. As you don't know, my first 2x3 camera was a Pressman C. I sold it and went Graphic. 'nuff said?

And I don't care what you say about using 2x3 film, there's a roll holder in your future. A Graflok back is much better for this than a spring back.

To Tim's point, among press cameras what matters is how big Zhenya is going to print. 2x3s are a lot smaller and lighter than the larger ones, have lower running costs too. I don't know if you've noticed it, but Zhenya has a genius for finding very good lenses for incredibly little money. I don't know if he can get lenses for Mamiya TLRs at such good prices, but I doubt he'll want to use only a normal lens for very long.

Reports on the dread Graftar and its brother the Graflar aren't all that consistent, but one thing that leaps out of them is the consensus that from f/11 or f/16 down they're very usable.

Cheers,

Dan

Zhenya, any suggestions on what to do with my Uran-27? The wretched thing seems completely unusable and isn't big enough to serve as a doorstop.

Dan Fromm · Sep 5, 2007

Zhenya, my 150/6.3 (pre-Adler's auge, it was made 1911-2) in barrel works very very well on my 2x3 Speed, also front-mounted on a #1 on my Century. Same design as the Eagle Eye, but without the advertising fluff.

The Uran-27's back focus is too short for front-mounting to work. The cells are held in with (at least) radial setscrews, and it isn't clear that they'll go into any known shutter. What is clear is that if I try to take the lens apart I'll ruin it. The rear cell is too big to pass through a 2x3 Graphic's front standard. I could cobble up a clamp to hold it in front of a lens board and then it might work on my 2x3 Speed, but that's a lot of work just to try it out.

Pretty thing, and the price was right (Euro 1, from a vendor on eBay.at), but my 4"/2.0 Taylor Hobson can be used, is a stop faster, and is phenomenal from around f/8 down.

I don't have as much sympathy for unemployed PhD physicists as some. My cohort was pushed hard to become scientists and engineers in the great panic the first Sputnik caused. Many of us did as our elders insisted, and ended up driving taxis after we'd got our degrees because the need for us wasn't as great as our elders had thought. More casualties of the cold war. The former soviet union doesn't have a monopoly on mismatches between supply of and demand for highly-specialized skilled labor.

And it wasn't just us relative youngsters who drove taxis. I remember vividly that the father of one of my girlfriends was an aeronautical engineer. Had a career for a while with North American Aviation. When the girl and I were dating, he was driving a taxi. She was even unhappier about his situation than you are about yours.

Cheers,

Dan

k_jupiter · Sep 6, 2007

eumenius said:
A 105 ancient Tessar, yes... or my fine pre-war 90/6.8 Angulon, or maybe even 150/6.3 Eagle-eye Tessar? Or 150/6.3 Fujinon-W, also small and good enough? He-he, a wide field for experiments

Cheers from Moscow,
Zhenya

Z-man,

150/6.3 Fujinon-w... my "daily user" on my 4x5. Has been for 20 some years now. Everytime I think I'll replace it... I ask myself "Why?"

No reason. Great lens, you should be able to hit infinity with it on the Century, should fit through the board opening (it's pretty small) great pictures.

tim in san jose

Curt · Sep 6, 2007

I have a Busch C which I put a Graflok back on so I could have the best of both worlds. It takes all of the 2x3 holders, roll and sheet. It was mint so fitting an International back on it was well worth the effort and less than the cost of replacing a lens.

Dan Fromm · Sep 6, 2007

Curt, when I bought my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed it had a spring back. Oops! I eventually got a Graflok for it, net cost around $30, by buying a Mini Speed with a 2x3 Pacemaker Graflok, swapping backs, and selling the Mini. Good for me.

Thing is, opportunities like that one aren't common and rarely appear when wanted most. The best way to get a Graphic or, for that matter, a 2x3 Pressman, with a Graflok back is to buy a camera that already has one.

Cheers,

Dan

darinwc · Sep 6, 2007

My sujjestion is that you hold out for a camera with everything you want.. Good lens, rangefinder, graflock back, ground glass insert, roll film holder.

If you get the busch, you still have to spring for a roll film holder and figure out how to attach it. If you get the century that you are looking at, you will be stuck without a rangefinder and a substandard lens.

jimgalli · Sep 6, 2007

Get a Mamiya Universal with film holders. There were some really excellent lenses for 6X9. Especially the 50mm f6.3 Biogon copy, and the 100 2.8 Planar copy.

Changeling1 · Sep 6, 2007

For the record, that would be Buridan's ass.

Dan Fromm · Sep 6, 2007

jimgalli said:
Get a Mamiya Universal with film holders. There were some really excellent lenses for 6X9. Especially the 50mm f6.3 Biogon copy, and the 100 2.8 Planar copy.

Also a good idea, especially because of the coupled RF. And the Mamiya Press holders are much better than the ones that Graflex and successors made.

Richard Kelham · Sep 6, 2007

eumenius said:
I've also got a REAL press camera - the Mark VIII MPP in perfect state, with Symmar Convertible 150/265 - it's somehow heavy for outdoors fun, on my opinion )

The MPP is more than a press camera it's a full-blown technical camera, just like the Linhof Technika but a lot cheaper.

I've lugged mine up a few hills but wouldn't want to go too far with it (but then I'm probably a lot older and more decrepit).

Richard

JBrunner · Sep 7, 2007

I'd hop up to a Graphic in 4x5. More accessories, more backs, more films, more neg.

A Buridane's ass - Century Graphic or Pressman C?

eumenius

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