A 90 degree turn. Back to basics.

WILL WORK FOR FILM · Jan 30, 2017

Well I have in the last year plunged myself down the rabbit hole that is film photography. The purchase of a cheap Minolta x-700 with a few pieces of junk glass followed by a beautiful Nikon F4 and several Nikkor lenses exploded me into a passion for the photographic process. Then I really stepped in it and started piecing together a mobile darkroom that my significant other is getting used to sidestepping in the bathroom.
I have read countless online articles and read all of Ansell's books but I am still very much an amateur after a whopping year of film photography. Recently I had a "not so original" idea. I have realized that as I have slowly progressed I have chased technological advancement through equipment. That this technology, as wonderful as it is, is in a way slowing my learning curve. So I graduated myself from relying on Aperature priority with the F4 to only Manual mode shooting. This has been helpful and quite educational but it is still very easy to cheat with the meter even in manual.
So... I am making a 90 degree turn for the sake of my own advancement. I plan to step even further back in time and try my hand at a more primitive style of photography. The recent purchase of a Nikon F photomic with a inoperative metering system will be my vehicle towards enlightenment. I will use one pre-ai lens (not sure which one yet) and the good old SUNNY 16 rule with a side of trial and error. I am open to suggestion in regards to the lens of choice. Was thinking either the venerable Nikkor-s 50mm f1.4 or Nikkor "O" 35mm f2.

Have any here done this for the purpose of furthering their skill as a photographer? Any suggestions or words of wisdom for newbie?

narsuitus · Jan 30, 2017

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:
I plan to step even further back in time and try my hand at a more primitive style of photography.

When I want to go primitive, I make a film pinhole camera and shoot with it.

Pinhole Cameras by Narsuitus, on Flickr

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2017

I have nothing against experimenting, but I have a question. Have you taken any great images? I went through the experimental phase a long time ago and found that I much prefer "proven" techniques and tools to maximize the chance of a good image as a result of my efforts. But that's just me...

WILL WORK FOR FILM · Jan 30, 2017

BrianShaw said:
I have nothing against experimenting, but I have a question. Have you taken any great images? I went through the experimental phase a long time ago and found that I much prefer "proven" techniques and tools to maximize the chance of a good image as a result of my efforts. But that's just me...

That is a very good question. "GREAT", well I would not go that far as to label my work as "Great". I am achieving the look that I have been after to some degree. I shoot mostly Tri-x for the purpose of dialing in the development technique. Love that pushed/gritty look that this film does so well. have played around with Delta 3200 a bit as well. Please don't get me wrong. I have no intention of abandoning the wonderful technology that we have at our disposal. Nor am I claiming that a "real' photographer only shoots manual. That's elitist B.S. in my opinion. I just want to push myself a bit to learn the basics with which all this technology originated from.

tedr1 · Jan 30, 2017

Learning camera craft is important (and fun) and exposure is part of camera craft.

I like and use both a spot meter, and auto-exposure cameras, for different tasks. A spot meter is a wonderful tool for discovering subject contrast range.

Negative films are pretty forgiving of exposure, the difference between a sunny sixteen shot and a metered shot is going to depend mostly on the type of meter and how it is used. Throwing away the meter will be instructive and perhaps liberating for some outdoor shots. But indoors you are still going to need some sort of meter.

You can get most of the way to printable negs by simply ensuring you never under-expose, because once shadow detail is lost it can't be recovered. So sunny 16 is a good start, but with negative film sunny sixteen plus a stop (double the exposure) may be even better. The problem areas are dim light (not enough light to expose the shadows without camera shake) and high contrast scenes (because they are difficult to print). One of my photography tutors preached "over expose and under develop" as a useful method for easily printable negs.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2017

Very cool. Enjoy! Just remember to verify in your experiments that sunny-16 is really right for your area. Some latitudes are more like Sunny-11.

peter k. · Jan 30, 2017

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:
Nikon F photomic with a inoperative metering system

Way cool... and Ah yes... friend of mine who still works at a camera store here in town, yearsss ago, said hey, why don't you sell those old camera's of your fathers and buy a digital and will go shooting.
Hmmm.. dug them out, one of them a Nikon F photomic. (With what as I found out later, a sort of operating inoperative metering system). Sitting on the chair, it wrapped around me. Hmmm.. lets see here, some filters, and look two other lenses, and an old Weston Ranger 9 light meter, (Which later I converted to modern batteries) and a mess of other supportive filters and equipment.
And so my filming began..
Later, before I ever got into large format, purchased a Nikon F2 and a friend gave me an F2 body. So started shooting them, one with B&W the other Color, and put the FTn away ... and now rarely shoot 35mm any more...

Then, .. read this post and you made me dig out that old FTN.. I really love that camera, and have put some B&W in it, and gonna shoot some 35mm again!!!
Know what else.. with the funny metering system had to verify it with the sunny 16 rule when I used it years back, and it has worked out well when shooting large format with the three old speed grafics we own. It trained me to use a meter hand held (of course the Weston Ranger 9) while verifying with Sunny 16.
Soooo THANK YOU, the phoenix of the 35 rises and will both be learning again..
Go fer it.. will both be having fun, going back to basics!

filmamigo · Jan 30, 2017

Great plan, I think the use of un-metered cameras has done a lot for both my technical proficiency, and my ability to achieve the aesthetic results I desire.

But I would recommend adding one more piece of gear. A reliable incident light meter.

This tool will allow you to achieve reliable, repeatable results that make the best use of your gear. It will also help you train your eye, to be sensitive to variations in light, to gauge whether that shadow is going to be an f/5.6 or an f/2.8. As mentioned, Sunny f/16 is very dependent on latitude, weather, time of day. Shooting in Toronto is Sunny f/11. In the winter it's more like Slate Grey f/8 or f/5.6.

One of the best lessons from using an incident meter, is thinking about the variations of light within the frame. It helps me think about subjects as solid bodies onto which the light falls, because the white dome of the meter is the surrogate for any object you wish to photograph. It's less easily tricked than a reflected meter, which is lead astray by subject matter that is darker, brighter, or shinier than an 18% gray card.

klownshed · Jan 30, 2017

There's nothing wrong with using aperture priority. You still need to have a feel for how you interpret the meter reading in the same way you need to judge the scene for sunny 16.

I use an OM-2n a lot and in Aperture prioroty mode has a very clear indication of shutter speed. From that you can decide whether you 'agree' with the meter or think you need a bit more or less exposure via the EC dial.

It's also a good way of testing your sunny 16 guess. Make your guess and then put the camera to your eye and get the shutter speed indicated for you.

On the OM the speed is not shown in manual mode, you get the needle with +/- symbols only, so it's actually easier to learn in auto mode as you'd otherwise keep having to take the camera from your eye after adjusting the shutter to see what the speed is on the dial.

Aperture priority is not cheating in my book! ;-)

WILL WORK FOR FILM · Jan 30, 2017

peter k. said:
Way cool... and Ah yes... friend of mine who still works at a camera store here in town, yearsss ago, said hey, why don't you sell those old camera's of your fathers and buy a digital and will go shooting.
Hmmm.. dug them out, one of them a Nikon F photomic. (With what as I found out later, a sort of operating inoperative metering system). Sitting on the chair, it wrapped around me. Hmmm.. lets see here, some filters, and look two other lenses, and an old Weston Ranger 9 light meter, (Which later I converted to modern batteries) and a mess of other supportive filters and equipment.
And so my filming began..
Later, before I ever got into large format, purchased a Nikon F2 and a friend gave me an F2 body. So started shooting them, one with B&W the other Color, and put the FTn away ... and now rarely shoot 35mm any more...

Then, .. read this post and you made me dig out that old FTN.. I really love that camera, and have put some B&W in it, and gonna shoot some 35mm again!!!
Know what else.. with the funny metering system had to verify it with the sunny 16 rule when I used it years back, and it has worked out well when shooting large format with the three old speed grafics we own. It trained me to use a meter hand held (of course the Weston Ranger 9) while verifying with Sunny 16.
Soooo THANK YOU, the phoenix of the 35 rises and will both be learning again..
Go fer it.. will both be having fun, going back to basics!

That's awesome! sounds like we are both on the same journey. If I'm not learning something new I am bored.

Sirius Glass · Jan 30, 2017

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:
That's awesome! sounds like we are both on the same journey. If I'm not learning something new I am bored.

That is the story of my life. I am always learning.

cooltouch · Jan 31, 2017

Will, I applaud you on your dedication to the craft. I went through a similar transformation, although I didn't take it to quite the extreme you are. I began my photographic experience with a Canon AE-1 that I bought new in 1982. A year later, I bought an A-1, a camera even more heavily laden with auto-exposure features. I was shooting slide film excluseively, with its infamous narrow exposure latitude by then and I wasn't happy with my results in many cases. Like you, I determined that the camera was the culprit, and I was relying way too much on technology. So I bought a Canon FTb, a camera that is a legendary workhorse with a superb match-needle metering system. Yes, by this point I was aware of the Sunny f/16 rule and I used it on occasion. In fact, I used it to check for a camera meter's accuracy (and still do).

Anyway, by stepping back from automation and forcing myself to use a manual camera, I learned Photography. I often state that the Canon FTb taught me photography. So I benefited greatly from this experience. Maybe a year or so later, I bought an original Canon F-1 and promptly fell in love. I've owned several since then, and many FTbs, but these two cameras will always hold a special place in my heart, regardless of the camera I'm using at the moment. But it is a result of this experience that, in spite of all the advances in camera automation that has occurred, I still prefer to shoot in manual mode with a restricted metering pattern (or I'll use Sunny f/16 or a good external meter, like my Gossen Luna Pro F). It isn't that I don't trust the automation (although sometimes I don't, in fact), it is simply that I prefer to work in the old tried and true manner. It keeps me sharp and makes me a better photographer, I believe.

albada · Jan 31, 2017

I seldom meter because I've memorized three common situations: Sunny-16 (EV 15 at ASA 100), open shade is three stops down from sun (EV 12 at ASA 100), and indoors is EV8-9 (at ASA 400). Then I adjust for the situation, such as covered shade or mixed sun-and-shade (common). Nonetheless, I suggest using a meter when practical. But be careful to point a reflected meter at something that has average reflectance.

Mark Overton

ME Super · Jan 31, 2017

Meters are good things, to be sure. But I've learned that when my 6x6 TLR (has no meter) is loaded with Portra 800, I can get a reasonable photo in my kitchen or living room with no flash, an aperture setting of f/3.5 (wide-open on this camera), and a shutter speed of 1/25 sec. Since it's a leaf shutter camera, it's definitely hand-holdable. If I'm shooting 35mm ISO 100 slide film, I reach for the flash.

I love aperture and shutter priority modes, and really don't like program mode. I prefer to retain some creative control over the look of my pictures, even when I let the camera pick the exposure. If you haven't already, learn the relationship between aperture and shutter speed - Sunny 16 (or sunny 11) is good, but f/16 and 1/125 and f/8 and 1/500 are equivalent exposures, but your picture can look completely different at these two settings depending on your subject matter and composition.

winger · Jan 31, 2017

Whatever method you use to get there, gaining experience is good. Sometime back in the dark ages, I started shooting with a fully manual Pentax and a handheld light meter. As a somewhat lazy teen, I didn't always want to get the meter out (and girls' jeans don't have pockets that actually hold anything), so I gradually learned to guess the exposure as long as I was using that camera and Tri-X. As long as you pay attention to what you're doing and look at your results with a critical and analytical eye, you'll learn.

WILL WORK FOR FILM · Feb 1, 2017

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I was just in need of a reality check before taking the jump.

RichardJack · Feb 1, 2017

Good for you and best of luck. My two cents...try to stick to AIs lenses rather than the Non-Ai. My reasons are chances are they will be in better condition, most are better optically and have better coatings. They will work with just about every body from the Nikon F to D6. A few favorites of mine: 50mm f2 Ai (a real sleeper, very sharp, same optics as the old " 50/2 HC" lens), 28mm f2 AI (best of the MF 28's. Better at infinity than the 28/2.8 AIs, has CRC), 135mm f2 AIs: another sleeper, tack sharp even wide open).
Have fun!

GarageBoy · Feb 6, 2017

I never understood why one had to use manual to be a 'real photographer" - you can learn to see light without guessing via sunny 16 - know what you're metering and why

keenmaster486 · Feb 6, 2017

Hello Boise!

I live in Kimberly. Currently attending the University of Colorado.

Great to see a fellow Idahoan here

I actually don't use any fully automatic cameras... I have one Pentax P30T SLR but I just never use it. I prefer my 50's rangefinders I also have a light meter that I used to use a lot more... there's something fun about gauging exposure with your eyes instead of a meter.

EDIT: Do you ever go up to the Sawtooth Valley to take pictures? That's my absolute favorite place

rpavich · Feb 7, 2017

GarageBoy said:
I never understood why one had to use manual to be a 'real photographer" - you can learn to see light without guessing via sunny 16 - know what you're metering and why

I read through the entire thread and nobody said that that was what makes a "real photographer"

rpavich · Feb 7, 2017

I understand your move. I'm one that has to be doing something new or unusual at least part of the time to keep myself interested.

I'd recommend a combination of two comments made already:
1.) You might be more like sunny 11 where you live (I know that most of the time here in WV that's the case)
2.) Buy a cheap incident meter; it's an invaluable learning tool to check your estimation of the light. You get a real exposure value and not just a "that's close" sort of thing. It will help...really.

Lastly, I'd say do your best to estimate and when in doubt open up one stop. Negative film won't mind and you'll give yourself a buffer against mistakes of underexposure.
When you are done with this experiment, on your first roll of film, then look at the negatives to evaluate your progress, not scans or whatever. The negative is the story.

WILL WORK FOR FILM · Feb 7, 2017

rpavich said:
I read through the entire thread and nobody said that that was what makes a "real photographer"

It's interesting how some people can read a paragraph and see what they want to see, rather than what is actually said.

A 90 degree turn. Back to basics.

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