A 1953 lens in a Dial-Set Compur - 184mm Wray Lustrar

Ian Grant · Jun 22, 2023

I bought a 184mm f4.5 Wray Lustrar which arrived today, I knew it was in an early Dial-Set Compur but assumed this was an anomaly. It's in very nice condition, checking the Vade Mecum there were two references from the 1953 BJP Almanac. I was surprised to see the illustration in the new goods section, and an advert, both showed a Dial-Set shutter.

The Vade Mecum claims the 210mm Lustrar is illustrated on page 575, however as that FL was in a Compound, ut;s clearly the 184mm that is illustrated.

It's odd for a post WWII lens to be sold in a Dial-Set Compur, mine has flash sync, The 184mm Listrar was often sold with the MPP S92 (military issue Micro Technical) cameras.

Ian

David Lindquist · Jun 22, 2023

In his paper on Voigtlaender large format lenses, 1949-1972, Arne Croell notes that the 180 mm Heliar and the 115 mm Ultragon were supplied in both rim-set and dial-set No. 2 Compur shutters. See: https://www.arnecroell.com/voigtlaender.pdf

He doesn't say anything about the source of the dial-set Compurs.

David

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2023

Thank you David, that helps shed some light. Not many post WWII lenses were in Compur 2 shutters, one other I can think of is the 180mm f4.5 Xenar, a quick image search for these lenses (showing their serial numbers) indicates the first in Rimset Compur shutters were sometime around mid 1953.

So it appears the Dial-Set Compur 2 was made into the early 1950s, unless there was surplus stock.

Ian

David Lindquist · Jun 23, 2023

Yes, Croell comments that the No. 2 rim-set Compur was introduced in 1953 (and discontinued in the mid to late 1960's.) I think that's a really good question as to whether Deckel made dial-set Compurs after the war or were lens makers working off surplus old stock.

Another lens that was made both pre- and post-WWII mounted in the No. 2 Compur was the 165 mm Angulon. (Why does spell check on a photography forum insist on "Angolan" ). Schneider would have needed the dial-set Compur for these too until the rim-set came along.

David

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2023

This is the lens in question, when it arrived it operated erratically and all speeds were fast. A careful clean of the slow speed train, and it works smoothly at all speeds.

It appears to have had very little use, the lens coatings are excellent. It illuminates almost the entire screen at Infinity on my 10x8 camera, coverage is given as 70º, so better coverage than a 180mm Xenar, probably not 7x5/Half plate unless stopped down to f22.

Not sure the Forum had any spell checking functions, I have a Grammar & Spell check add-on in Firefox, which is very good.

Ian

JPD · Jun 23, 2023

Does the dial-set Compur have a serial number?

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2023

JPD said:
Does the dial-set Compur have a serial number?

It's unreadable bit yes.

Ian

JPD · Jun 23, 2023

Ian Grant said:
It's unreadable bit yes.

Ian

Typical. It might have helped. Are the screws nickeled or chromed? Deckel switched to chrome for their rim-set Compurs around 1937-38 so that could be a clue. I doubt that they would have continued with nickel plating for another type of shutter that was made at the same time, or later, just for the old timey looks.

David Lindquist · Jun 25, 2023

Interesting lens. Given an f/4.5 lens like that I would have guessed a Tessar type but found a diagram of it in C.B. Neblette's Photographic Lenses (1965). It's four air-spaced elements, not symmetrical. Wouldn't have guessed 70º coverage either. It looks like Wray used the name "Lustrar" the way Kodak used the name "Ektar", applying it to a variety of different lens designs.

David

Ian Grant · Jun 25, 2023

David Lindquist said:
Interesting lens. Given an f/4.5 lens like that I would have guessed a Tessar type but found a diagram of it in C.B. Neblette's Photographic Lenses (1965). It's four air-spaced elements, not symmetrical. Wouldn't have guessed 70º coverage either. It looks like Wray used the name "Lustrar" the way Kodak used the name "Ektar", applying it to a variety of different lens designs.

David

The Wray 89mm Wide Angle has a bad reputation, the 184mm the opposite.

I don't know that book, but you only have to compare the US Kodak 203mm (8") f7.7 Anastigmat (never sold in the UK) with the EK 203mm f7.7 Ektar, or the UK Kodak Ltd made version, and suddenly what was a very sharp, but low contrast lens is totally transformed by lens coatings, into a superb lens.

As Dan Fromm says, ask the lens, try it

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jun 25, 2023

David, the f/4.5 Lustrars are somewhat confusing. The VM says in several places that pre-WW II f/4.5 Lustrars have 4 air-spaced elements, also that post-WW II f/4.5 Lustrars are tessar types. Ian's lens s/n seems to be well post-war. Pont and the VM place it in '53 and '52 respectively.

Ian, its time to ask the lens. How many bright reflections do you see in the rear cell?

David Lindquist · Jun 25, 2023

Also found the Wray Lustrar listed in Allen Greenleaf's Photographic Optics (1950). Here too it's shown as having 4 air-spaced elements. In A History of the Photographic Lens (1989) Rudolph Kingslake lists 29 trade names of lenses that were of the Tessar type, Lustrar is included. He also states that not every lens bearing one of these trade names is "necessarily of this construction." Ektar for one example.

Ian, you seem pretty handy. Maybe you could disassemble your lens and establish its construction for us with certainty. Just make sure you keep all the elements in order and in correct orientation.

David

Dan Fromm · Jun 25, 2023

David Lindquist said:
Ian, you seem pretty handy. Maybe you could disassemble your lens and establish its construction for us with certainty. Just make sure you keep all the elements in order and in correct orientation.

Counting reflections is safer and easier.

Ian Grant · Jun 26, 2023

Both front and rear cells show two strong reflections. Like Dan I find the Vade Mecum a bit vague in places, unfortunately it can't be updated, I have every BJP Almanac from 1921 to 1963 it became the BLP Annual with a different format after that, plus a few earlier copies. This means I can check the BJP A references given in the Vade Mecum.

The Lustrar is advertised in the 1946 Almanac, then listed in the New Goods section in the 1953 Almanac, this most likely coincides with a re-design, my lens does appear to have 4 air spaced elements.

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jun 26, 2023

Ian, thanks for reporting.

Two air-spaced elements in a cell have four air-glass-air interfaces, should show four strong reflections. A tessar's rear cell has two cemented elements, two air-glass-air interfaces and one glass-cement-glass interface. Two strong and one weak reflection. The weak reflection can be hard to see. I have a couple of 135/4.8 Lustrars, ex-Peckham Wray press camera, both with serial numbers much higher than your 184/4.5's. Both are tessar types.

Cheers,

Dan

Ian Grant · Feb 10, 2024

An update the shutter serial number is for 1926.

Ian

A 1953 lens in a Dial-Set Compur - 184mm Wray Lustrar

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