a 180mm lens that would make an awesome macro lens for 8x10

Jordan.K · Jun 17, 2012

I am looking for an 180mm lens that would work well as a macro/ close up lens for 8x10. I know there are dedicated macro lenses, however their prices are beyond the range I wold like to spend. This for some copy stand work. Thanks in advance.

Ian Grant · Jun 17, 2012

An 180mm enlarger lens would be a good option a Componon should fit in a shutter, not sure what size though. schneider sold Componons as Macro lenses at one time.

Ian

TimmyMac · Jun 17, 2012

The G-Claron is optimized for 1:1 and a 180 will cover 8x10 at that magnification. If you're willing to go up to a 210 or 240 it'll cover at infinity as well. Cheap, small, and light, and they fit in shutters!

holmburgers · Jun 18, 2012

Take this with a grain of salt cause I'm going off purely anecdotal evidence, but how about a Schneider-Kreuznach 180mm Symmar convertible?

I've heard that this symmetrical and relatively simple design keeps a very flat field and I'm guessing(?) it might cover 8x10" at macro. It's suggested for 5x7" as a normal lens.

Dan Fromm · Jun 18, 2012

holmburgers said:
Take this with a grain of salt cause I'm going off purely anecdotal evidence, but how about a Schneider-Kreuznach 180mm Symmar convertible?

I've heard that this symmetrical and relatively simple design keeps a very flat field and I'm guessing(?) it might cover 8x10" at macro. It's suggested for 5x7" as a normal lens.

Not symmetrical, no simpler than any other 6/4 plasmat, and not particularly good close up.

The OP asked an unanswerable question and ran away. Unanswerable because without knowing the range of magnifications he wants to work at we can't know how much coverage is needed. He didn't even say why he wanted a 180.

holmburgers · Jun 18, 2012

Dan Fromm said:
Not symmetrical, no simpler than any other 6/4 plasmat, and not particularly good close up.

The OP asked an unanswerable question and ran away. Unanswerable because without knowing the range of magnifications he wants to work at we can't know how much coverage is needed. He didn't even say why he wanted a 180.

There you go; salty.

I forget where I read this, but I recall that these old Symmars are good for copy work; a poor man's process lens. That's why I thought it may perhaps be good for marcro.

johnielvis · Jun 20, 2012

190 wide field ektar--kodak recommends for closeups--will give you incredible movement potential for macro with huge macro image circle--covers 8x10 straight off too. see the camera-eccentric website for the kodak lenses--tells all about it

Jordan.K · Jun 23, 2012

I wanted a 180mm for close up work on a copy stand. It may not always be macro work, but all will be done at much close than infinity. I can not afford a 180 specifically designed for macro, so I was wondering which 180mm would work best for close up work. I believe I also would want it to be multicoated as the lights I am using are bright and often at either side of the lens..... if someone thinks a single coated lens would not be affected by such a lighting situation please feel to let me know and I may feel good about getting a g-claron. I am also considering a 210mm.

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2012

Tessar lenses are OK for close up work, and you can get good 180mm or 210mm Xenars for very reasonable prices. I wouldn't be too worried about multicoating, just use a good lens hood and shield the lighting if your worried. I used a 150mm Xenar at work on a copy camera in the late 70's & 80's and it gave excellent results.

Another option, probably the most suitable on a budget, is the 203mm (8") f7.7 Ektar, as it's a Dialyte it's excellent at all distances including extreme close-ups (according to Kodak literature) and again inexpensive these days many people rate them very highly. The later versions have deeper coatings. Kodak made these lenses in Rochester as well as the UK, the British version was sold in an Epsilon/Prontor/Comur #0 shutter, the US ones in Supermatics which aren't compatible to other shutters.

I have a 203mm Ektar and it is very sharp even close up, mine's remarkable well coated.

Ian

graywolf · Jun 23, 2012

Actually, the 203mm Ektar seems to have become something of a collectors item over here in the USA. If you looked around, you used to be able to get one for $50, now I see them going for $400+. At that price there are a lot of cheaper options.

Old-N-Feeble · Jun 23, 2012

True about the 203mm Ektar but deals are still available. And... it's not "optimized" for 1:1 but infinity. You might be comparing the 210mm G-Glaron (optimized for close work) with the 203mm Ektar... among many other popular older dialyte designs also optimized for close work. IMO, the Kodak Ektar kicks a$$ for landscape work. The 203 Ektar is actually sharpest wide open at infinity whilst the G-Claron must be stopped down to f/16 or smaller. Think about that for just one moment...

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2012

Here you're wrong the 203mm (8") Ektar "retains it's correction to a high degree when used for extreme close-ups", Kodak's words not mine. Dialytes seem to be fairly unique in this respect. My recent results indicate this is probably true.

Ian

Old-N-Feeble · Jun 23, 2012

Yes, but the G-Claron is optimized for close-up images while the 203 Ektar is optimized for at or near infinity. Both work well either way but neither are optimized for both.

TimmyMac · Jun 24, 2012

The Fujinon A is optimized for 1:1 like the G-Claron and is multicoated, if the single-coating is what's steering you away from the G. Similarly 180mm will get you to 8x10 at 1:1 and the 240 will cover 8x10.

Costs a lot more than the G-Claron, though.

John Kasaian · Jun 25, 2012

I've used a 159mm Wollensak "yellow dot" WA Velostigmat for 1:1 and I enjoy the "look" in particular with warmtone papers, but it depends a lot on the subject (I was shooting marine specimens and the Wolly WA Velo was "the bomb" IMHO)

Steve Goldstein · Jun 26, 2012

The 7-1/2" (190mm) Ilex Acuton is supposed to be quite good up to, I think, half life-size per posts by Lynn Jones on the Large Format Photography Forum. Lynn was involved with Ilex at the time they were designed and produced. I have one kicking around here - way too many 180s and 210s - but have never tried it for macro. They show up occasionally on eBay in the $150 range, though the 215 in Ilex shutter is much more common.

jimgalli · Jun 28, 2012

I was surprised it took 14 answers before anyone mentioned the gorgeous little Fujinon 180mm f9A lens! And yes, I'd look to the 203 Ektar, coated, next. A 210mm Schneider Repro Claron, not necessarily the G-Claron, would be worth a 3rd slot.

Bob Carnie · Jun 28, 2012

I too am looking for a lens for an 8x10 camera where I can take small objects and get a size on film up to 3 x size of object. I have a 210mm but am open to other lenses. I would also like to know what lens would be optimal or made for this purpose and where would I source one to find pricing.

I have hundreds of objects about 1-3 inches in height that I would like to see large on 8x10 sheet film.

Jordan.K said:
I wanted a 180mm for close up work on a copy stand. It may not always be macro work, but all will be done at much close than infinity. I can not afford a 180 specifically designed for macro, so I was wondering which 180mm would work best for close up work. I believe I also would want it to be multicoated as the lights I am using are bright and often at either side of the lens..... if someone thinks a single coated lens would not be affected by such a lighting situation please feel to let me know and I may feel good about getting a g-claron. I am also considering a 210mm.

Dan Fromm · Jun 28, 2012

Bob, there's a rule of thumb to the effect of "the higher the magnification, the shorter the lens." This because, for a given focal length the higher the magnification, the more extension needed. How much ya got?

jimgalli · Jun 28, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
I have hundreds of objects about 1-3 inches in height that I would like to see large on 8x10 sheet film.

4 racers

Made with a 9" petzval type. My strange depth of field requirements are not the norm, nor for everybody, but just to point out that with this type of photography bellows extension and stability is really more the problem to solve than which lens. In this case I've used an ancient studio camera with 8X10 back (this may have actually been 5X7!) and a rolling stand with table top for the camera. Stable stable stable, and 36" of bellows to play with, that will not sag.

I also always tell people to start with the ordinary 150mm Componon that's already on the enlarger. Turn it around backwards. Yes, matilda, at the extensions you'll need for 3X it'll cover 8X10 very nicely, and it'll be operating within it's design parameters.

Bob Carnie · Jun 28, 2012

I have 36 inch of workable bellows ... I am using an old century camera with no shutter, its light tight as I have gone through a few boxes of film as late as last sunday.

Dan Fromm said:
Bob, there's a rule of thumb to the effect of "the higher the magnification, the shorter the lens." This because, for a given focal length the higher the magnification, the more extension needed. How much ya got?

Bob Carnie · Jun 28, 2012

I have a 240 , 180 , 150 mm enlarger lenses that I could use, I also have a 150 mm camera lens.
Would any or all of these work?

jimgalli said:
4 racers

Made with a 9" petzval type. My strange depth of field requirements are not the norm, nor for everybody, but just to point out that with this type of photography bellows extension and stability is really more the problem to solve than which lens. In this case I've used an ancient studio camera with 8X10 back (this may have actually been 5X7!) and a rolling stand with table top for the camera. Stable stable stable, and 36" of bellows to play with, that will not sag.

I also always tell people to start with the ordinary 150mm Componon that's already on the enlarger. Turn it around backwards. Yes, matilda, at the extensions you'll need for 3X it'll cover 8X10 very nicely, and it'll be operating within it's design parameters.

Dan Fromm · Jun 28, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
I have 36 inch of workable bellows ... I am using an old century camera with no shutter, its light tight as I have gone through a few boxes of film as late as last sunday.

Well, the magic rule is: extension (distance from lens' rear node to film plane) = focal length * (1 + magnification). So the longest lens you can use is 9" and a bit shorter would probably be better. For most lenses, the rear node is near the diaphragm.

There's another magic rule, to the effect that if the lens is intended to be used at magnifications below 1:1 (that's all taking and enlarging lenses) it should be reversed when used at magnifications > 1:1. The big exceptions are symmetrical (with identical front and rear cells) lenses; this includes Apo-Saphirs (heliar type), some, perhaps not all, dagor types and most if not all dialyte type process lenses.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

Leigh B · Jun 28, 2012

I have a Fujinon CM-W 180/5.6 in a Copal #1 available in EXC condition for $395 including shipping in CONUS.
It's an almost-symmetrical design of six elements in five groups. It takes 67mm filters.
Here's a schematic drawing of the lens: http://www.mayadate.org/pix/Fujinon_CM-W.png

This is the later EBC-coated version with lettering on the outside of the barrel.
The IC is 260mm @ infinity (8x10 diagonal is 325mm), so it will cover a range of close-up work, not just 1:1.
It would even work @ infinity with vignetting of the corners.

FFL is 170.7mm, so 1:1 requires a bellows draw of 170.7+180 = 350.7mm (13.8").

I can provide photos if you're interested in it.

- Leigh

Leigh B · Jun 28, 2012

Dan Fromm said:
So the longest lens you can use is 9" and a bit shorter would probably be better.

Hi Dan,

Not meaning to quibble, but...

If you use 1:1 as the close-focus limit, your maximum lens FL is about 1/2 the bellows draw, which would be 18" in this case.

The other 2xFL (@ 1:1) is in front of the lens and is not involved in the bellows draw calculations.

- Leigh

a 180mm lens that would make an awesome macro lens for 8x10

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