828 Film History - Some Answers and Some Questions

[Meyer Trioplan]

Good Day All,

I'm in the process of doing a collaboration for an eventual blog post that will elaborate upon the history of the 828 film format that was introduced in 1935 and discontinued in 1985. While this format was never significantly mainstream in the way that 135 and 120 were, and it didn't have quite the wide adoption that other formats like 116 and 127 did, it still strikes me as a fascinating format with some often impressive aspects.

As I dig through what I can and locate more information, I have found a lot of interesting tidbits about the format. For example, 828 is often thought of as a Kodak proprietary format. While Kodak is often credited (or reviled) for its creation, I am able to find numerous examples of 828 cameras that were not made by Kodak, most of which are basic, but at least a few of which are rather capable. As well, film for 828 was made by both Ilford and Ansco in its prime.

One misconception that I had when starting this was that 828 film offerings were simply derivative of 135 offerings since the film stock width is the same. Interestingly, that was hardly the case, at least for Kodak, as I can find at least 3 examples of 828 films that were not offered in 135 at certain points in their history. For example, Kodacolor 828 was released in September of 1950, nearly a decade before this color negative film was offered in 135.

Attached is a screen shot of a film timeline chart that I am working on for this project. This has been compiled from referencing old advertisements as well as expiration dates of films in my collection as well as those offered for sale. I would gladly take input on this based upon whatever evidence you might have regarding film availability at specific points.

Some of my hazy spots include:

Was Kodak Super Sensitive (SS) ever offered in 828?
I know DP was offered in 828 for a time in the late 40's, but was Kodak Microfilm or Infrared ever offered in 828?
Kodachrome-II codes seem to jump all over the place between K, KR, and KM starting in 1962. Is there any defined timeline of this?
When were Verichrome Pan, Kodachrome-II, and Ektachrome-X discontinued in 828? All I have to go upon is sale listings and internet image searches that I can compile a latest known expiration date.
When did Ilford make 828 film? All I have is a couple of internet images to give me a starting point, but there is little in the way of information otherwise.

Thanks, and enjoy!!!

 

[1L6E6VHF]

I would have expected Kodachrome in 828 to have followed the same progression as it did in 135.

Upon the introduction of Kodachrome II (ASA 25, process K-12), it had been designated KR (perhaps meaning "Kodachrome Revised"?), since Kodachrome (ASA 10, process K-11) was nominally still on the market, and already had the designation "K".

The co-existence of Kodachrome II and "old" Kodachrome, however, was quite brief. For some reason, some time after "old" K had been discontinued, Kodak decided to give the "K" designation to Kodachrome II. Soon after, Kodachrome-X (ASA 64, process K-12) arrived on the market, with the designation "KX", however, as far as I can tell, KX was never offered in 828 (for the new Kodapak 126 cartridge, the reverse would be true, only KX would be available, not K. Both K and KX were available in 135).

I don't think any K-12 film ever had the "KM" designation, which was applied to the new Kodachrome 25 film (process K-14) in 1974, the same time Kodachrome-X was replaced by Kodachrome 64 (also K-14), which received the confusing designation "KR" - that briefly graced boxes of K II a decade earlier.

Thanks for posting something about 828. I've always had an odd interest in the format. I think I just appreciated what Kodak was trying to do - make color-slide photography available to more people. I finally was able to use the format in 2002. I had acquired a Pony 828 at a camera show (the Pony possibly outnumbers all other 828 cameras combined), some ready-mounts from an old camera shop, made my own Provia 100 828 (using a saw) and still had a dip-and-dunk lab in the area that would process it.

 

[Meyer Trioplan]

Thanks a lot for just that! The progression actually starts to make a bit more sense now, and I can see where I will likely have to revise the charting of the later Kodachrome. I know I have seen photos of boxes of KM 828 but I can't recall if they are marketed as Kodachrome-II or Kodachrome 25, and as well, if they are K-12 or K14. I also can't find evidence of Kodachrome 64 making it to 828 format. As well, I haven't quite figured out when Kodachrome vanished as an 828 offering altogether. I would guess that Dealer price lists and/or an official announcement to be the best way to determine that.

One interesting thing I have observed in my looking about are ads from 1937 in which Kodachrome is advertised for use in 828 cameras, but I don't see such a mention of 135 cassettes advertised until 1938. I actually have some glass mounts taken in 1938 on the "first generation" Kodachrome, likely on a Bantam Special f/2.0, and they are quite faded. Luckily, some shots from 1939 from the same batch of slides (but obviously the improved emulsion) are dramatically better in their color retention.

Speaking of equipment, I've noticed notch codes in the frames taken with the cameras. The Bantam Special with the f/2.0 Ektar has a single notch on the left bottom, the f/4.5 and Bantam Flash have two, and the f/5.6 has three. These seem to be absent from Bantams with f/6.3 or slower lenses. The Pony you mention seems to lack them, but the Bantam RF seems to have a squared off notch in the right middle of the frame. Sort of a neat way of telling what camera one's classic Bantam photos were taken using.

Glad to get some feedback! I'm smitten with an equally odd interest in this quirky format thanks to my Dad having a 1947 Bantam with the f/4.5 lens that I managed to reactivate after some TLC and some similar innovation with a disused TLR and a guide blade to cut down Provia and Velvia. Luckily, there is a dip and dunk E6 lab in Florida that will do my 828 rolls in E6 and one in New Hampshire that will do BW and C-41.

 

[aoresteen]

Meyer,

Your time line is very well done! I was very surprised to see that Kodak made 828 DP film. I never knew that.

I had a 70's Kodak catalog but I can't find it. If I do I'll check it for 828 info.

 

[skorpiius]

Love that timeline. Is there a similar one anywhere for 135 and 120? Even just Kodak?

 

[MattKing]

A lot of our family photos are on 828 Kodachrome that my Dad shot in his Bantam RF.

I expect that the majority are on Kodachrome II. I don't believe that it was ever made for the newer K-14 process. If it had been, I expect my Dad would have never switched to a Canon SLR.

 

[AgX]

Type 828 was completely unknown here.

Thank you for that timline.

 

[Meyer Trioplan]

Tony,

Glad you like! I was surprised too to see how diverse the offerings were for 828. Kodak really did give it the Boy Scout Try for quite some time. If you can find the info, I would love that.

Skor,

Thanks! Once I finalize this, I may take a stab at 120 and 135. Some formats like 116 and 620 might be interesting too.

Matt,

It seems 828 Kodachrome was in its waning days when the K14 process came to be. If you do a Google image search of "Kodachrome 25 828," there is one example shown of Kodachrome 25 for 828 that expired in 1975. I guess it did exist, albeit briefly.

AgX,

While there was some 828 in England and (apparently) Japan, it seems Germany'a only 828 camera of note was the Bolts Photavit 828, but I doubt they were terribly common.

 

[MattKing]

Matt,

It seems 828 Kodachrome was in its waning days when the K14 process came to be. If you do a Google image search of "Kodachrome 25 828," there is one example shown of Kodachrome 25 for 828 that expired in 1975. I guess it did exist, albeit briefly.

I'm wondering if Kodak Canada didn't implement 828 capability when they transitioned to K14?

My Dad was the Supervisor (marketing division) of Colour Processing Services at the North Vancouver, BC, Canada Kodak processing lab between 1961 and 1983. The Canon FTb appeared at home in or about 1974, and the Bantam RF must have been retired by him about then.

 

[Hatchetman]

a few years ago I got a couple rolls of VP 828 on ebay. In the the boxes were little notes from Kodak saying it was being discontinued. I believe the expiration date was 1981 or 1982.

 

[AgX]

Type 828 was completely unknown here.

While there was some 828 in England and (apparently) Japan, it seems Germany'a only 828 camera of note was the Bolts Photavit 828, but I doubt they were terribly common.

Thank you for that information, very much appreciated. That brand/camera was so rare that I did not even knew it. (It is Bolta and by then Photavit)

The manufacturer seemingly offered the appropriate film themselves.

It was no true type 828 system, but took two cassettes. Imagine the Karat system, but with rollfilm instead and reloadable.
It is said to take rollfilm spools compatible to type Ensign 10.
But I do not know whether these were compatible with type 828.

 

[Peltigera]

Type 828 was completely unknown here.

Thank you for that timline.

Voigtlander's original 1939 Vito folding camera was designed for 828 film. Even after the Vito design was modified in the late 1940s to use 135 cassettes, there were no sprockets, film spacing being achieved by a feeler roller. Sprockets only came with the Vito II camera.

www.johns-old-cameras.blogspot.co.uk

 

[AgX]

That Vito model for type 828 film was seemingly never produced, beyond a prototype.

I also could not find it in the most comprehensive camera listing.
-) no rollfilm camera listed designated as Vito
-) no rollfilm camera listed with 30mm high frame


Could it be that camera was designed for export to the US anyway?

 

[Kevin P.]

I realize this thread is about 1-1/2 years old, but I have a couple of answers to the OP's questions .

I have a roll of Kodachrome 25 in 828 size. It's expiration is dated Mar 1977, the backing paper is clearly marked '828 Kodachrome 25'. I have looked at rolls of KM 828 offered on Ebay and have not seen any with a later date. More interestingly, the roll of film has the infamous 'white band of death' surrounding the unopened roll. (For those of you that don't know, Kodak replaced the regular Kodak yellow colored band securing a fresh roll of paper backed roll film with a white printed band stating the discontinuance of that type of roll film in that size when the film size/type was discontinued by Kodak). The KM 828 roll of film states on it's white band: 'Eastman Kodak will not manufacture Kodachrome/Ektachrome film in this size after 1975'.

It's very interesting that my roll of KM 828 still comes with the film in an aluminum can. My October 1973 Modern Photography has a short article announcing that Kodak was replacing the old aluminum film cans with the new plastic cans (which at the time had black caps and gray colored bodies-this was changed roughly about a year later to the gray caps and black cans which Kodak still uses).

It's also very interesting that Kodak offered Kodacolor in 828 size 8 years before 135, Kodacolor 35mm was not offered until late 1958 (it's reviewed in my Oct. 1958 Modern Photography).

My 1973 printing of the Kodak book 'Adventures In Existing Light Photography' lists 828 film as being available in Ektachrome-X, Kodacolor-X and Verichrome Pan (The ASA 25 versions of Kodachrome are not listedanywhere in this book,; Kodak must have thought ASA 25 too slow to consider for listing in this book). My 1976 revised printing of the same book lists Kodacolor II as being the only film in 828. VP and EX are gone, CX was replaced by C II.

I also have a listing of old Kodak roll film sizes that was posted on the Internet on an old AOL site (year 2000?) which is now long gone. It lists the year of introduction and
month/year of discontinuance of old Kodak roll films sizes 101-119, 121-130, 616, 620, 828 and 35 (not 35mm!) 828 film is listed as discontinued in Mar 1985 (which was Kodacolor II, the last film made in 828).

It was August 1974 that Modern Photography had a front page article on the then
new K-14 Kodachrome. I would think that KM in 828 only became available at the end of '74 as existing stocks of the old KII 828 size were depleted. With KM 828 being discontinued by the end of 1975, I suspectK25 828 was really only available for about a year. Amazing that Kodak went to all the trouble to manufacture this film size for only about a year-talk about loyalty to their customers!

Most people don't know that when Kodak replaced an old film with a newer type they
didn't replace all film sizes all at once. The most popular and fastest moving sizes got
replaced first, then less popular sizes, with usually the old roll film sizes becoming
available st. For example, a casual search on the Internet brings up the fact that
Kodak replaced the C-22 process Kodacolor-X film with the new C-41 process
Kodacolor II film in 1972. This is only partially true. Kodacolor II was brought out in
summer 1972 with the roll out of the brand new 110 size cameras. Kodacolor-X film was not replaced in 35mm until early 1974. Modern Photography tested
35mm. Kodacolor-X vs. Kodacolor II in their April 1974 issue/

I think it took a long time for CX in 135 (and certainly roll film) to get out of the pipeline-probably sometime in 1975.

Last year, I went to a website called newspapers(dot)com and through a paid
subscription was able to download many camera department film ads from K-Mart, all
dating from the 1970's (which was the era i was interested in).

I have some K-Mart camera dept. ads from March 27 1975 where they are selling
Kodacolor-X in 35mm. size, and in the same ad Kodachrome 25 in 35mm AND the new Kodacolor II in 126 size! (You may not believe it but 126 size color print film, was more popular in the late 60's and early 70's than 35mm. color print film.) To me, this
ad supports the idea that C II showed up on shelves in 126 size before it showed up in 135 size.

I think it's a safe bet to say that in 1975, Kodak's least popular roll film sizes still in
production were 116, 616 and 828 and I think the new Kodacolor II did not appear in
those sizes until 1975-probably late '75!

I did see on Ebay a few months ago, someone offering a roll of Kodacolor-X in 828 size, it had an expiration date from 1976 (can't remember the month but it was likely Spring 1976). (Sorry to get off on this bunny trail).

 

[Clicker2850]

Kodachrome-II (K-2) (ASA/ISO 25) and Kodachrome-X (K-X) (ASA/ISO 64) both used the same development chemistry, K-12 Process. Kodachrome 25 (KM) and Kodachrome 64 (KR) replaced K-2 and K-X respectively circa 1974-1975. Both used K-14 Process. Circa 1985, Kodachrome-200 (ASA/ISO 200), was introduced in 135 and 120 sizes. It was discontinued circa late 1990s. It also use the K-14 process.

Since 1971, I've used all five versions of Kodachrome, in 135 size. It is still my favorite film, even though no longer made or processed. A friend gave me some of his original slides, shot circa 1949, on 828 Kodachrome. Their colors are as rich today as they were when shot, 75+ years ago.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Kodachrome 64 was offered in 120 size (PKR120), not Kodachrome 200 that I'm aware of.
There was also Kodachrome 40 Type A KPA135-36.
But back on topic, re: 828 film.
The Traid Corp. FOTRON camera, sold door to door, (one of the biggest scams ever in door-to-door camera sales history) ....used bog-standard 828 film inside sealed plastic proprietary film cartridges that could 'only be processed by mailing in to Traid's photo lab'.