8 year old Ilford FB paper... Any good?

J Rollinger · May 9, 2011

Someone offered to sell me a box of Ilford 11x14 FB paper that has a date of apx 11-03... Could is still be good giving that fact that it was sitting on a shelf the entire time? I cant test it since the paper is a few miles away and they dont have a darkroom.

Fotoguy20d · May 9, 2011

It might be. I have a box of 8x10 MG FB that's at least that old. Mine has been kept in a cool basement and its still quite usable. Is it as good as a fresh box? I doubt it, but it doesn't appear fogged, and contrast seems good. Are they selling it to you cheap? Really cheap?

Dan

David Lyga · May 9, 2011

I'll bet it is excellent. But do the coin test first. Cut off a tiny piece (about 2" X 2") in the dark. Then place a coin firmly in the center, emulsion side up, on a table top. Then turn on full room lights for about 10 sec (or longer). Then, back to darkness and process in paper dev and stop and fix. Then comes the moment of truth: How white is the coin area?. If COMPLETELY white you got a bargain. But even if somewhat grey you sill can probably make it 'whole' but you are going to have to do other things to it.

If, say, medium gray, you must print and process so that you get a proportionally darker print (normal print density PLUS age fog). After fixation you must reduce in Farmers reducer to 'bring back' the whites where they should be. It does take a bit of trial and error and DON'T make the stupid mistake of wasting whole sheets for this purpose. I would say that medium gray age fog is about the MOST that you can tolerate for optimum results. But I have even gotten somewhat presentable results with even more base density. Life is not always facile. If anyone would like a verbal description call me at 215.569.4949. This is a valuable toos for using age fogged paper. I only wish there was a way to do the same for the RA4 color paper. - David Lyga.

J Rollinger · May 9, 2011

Fotoguy20d said:
It might be. I have a box of 8x10 MG FB that's at least that old. Mine has been kept in a cool basement and its still quite usable. Is it as good as a fresh box? I doubt it, but it doesn't appear fogged, and contrast seems good. Are they selling it to you cheap? Really cheap?

Dan

As of right now they are asking half of the retail price. The box is still sealed but the date code is 89 so that shows it was coated in axp 11-2003.

David Lyga · May 9, 2011

Testing BEFORE buying? Hard but doable. Bring a changing bag (or facsimile) or ask if there is a COMPLETELY lighttight room (closet?) where you can stuff plastic bags under door cracks, etc. Bring a small amount of paper dev and stop and fix and tiny plastic containers to do the coin test. You do not need a 'darkroom' per se. When you are as unwealthy as I am you improvise. I'll tell you that even half off RETAIL is no gigantic bargain. Adorama sells NEW paper (Adorama brand) for that price. - David Lyga

J Rollinger · May 9, 2011

David Lyga said:
I'll bet it is excellent. But do the coin test first. Cut off a tiny piece (about 2" X 2") in the dark. Then place a coin firmly in the center, emulsion side up, on a table top. Then turn on full room lights for about 10 sec (or longer). Then, back to darkness and process in paper dev and stop and fix. Then comes the moment of truth: How white is the coin area?. If COMPLETELY white you got a bargain. But even if somewhat grey you sill can probably make it 'whole' but you are going to have to do other things to it.

If, say, medium gray, you must print and process so that you get a proportionally darker print (normal print density PLUS age fog). After fixation you must reduce in Farmers reducer to 'bring back' the whites where they should be. It does take a bit of trial and error and DON'T make the stupid mistake of wasting whole sheets for this purpose. I would say that medium gray age fog is about the MOST that you can tolerate for optimum results. But I have even gotten somewhat presentable results with even more base density. Life is not always facile. If anyone would like a verbal description call me at 215.569.4949. This is a valuable toos for using age fogged paper. I only wish there was a way to do the same for the RA4 color paper. - David Lyga.

Thats a good idea but the paper is from a former photography student that has no darkroom or dark area that i can test it in.

David Lyga · May 9, 2011

All I can say in desperation is to bring some gigantic lawn leaf bags and make a tent! Based on my long experience (I am 61) I would say you have NOTHING to worry about with this minor age. - David Lyga

J Rollinger · May 9, 2011

David Lyga said:
Testing BEFORE buying? Hard but doable. Bring a changing bag (or facsimile) or ask if there is a COMPLETELY lighttight room (closet?) where you can stuff plastic bags under door cracks, etc. Bring a small amount of paper dev and stop and fix and tiny plastic containers to do the coin test. You do not need a 'darkroom' per se. When you are as unwealthy as I am you improvise. I'll tell you that even half off RETAIL is no gigantic bargain. Adorama sells NEW paper (Adorama brand) for that price. - David Lyga

Dave
I understand what you are saying but i feel its a big waste of time to bring a changing bag and chemicals to their home to test it, Its only a single box of 11x14 50ct box. The gas and time could be saved by buying a fresh box from B&H for $82. They want $40 for the box but i just sent them an offer of $25.

David Lyga · May 9, 2011

OK but these tests are easier than appear to be at first. I do wish you luck. - David Lyga

moki · May 9, 2011

It's probably ok if it wasn't stored in conditions with extreme temperature changes and/or moisture... black and white paper takes aging rather well. For half the price, I'd buy it any time.
Last year I found a box of old ORWO paper that was at least 20 years old and stored in a basement. It worked pretty well. The contrast was lower than expected (it was rated grad. 2 but was more like 1 or 1,5) and it needed a little more exposure than fresh paper, but with a strong developer (fresh N113, but with 800ml of water instead of 1000ml) I still got very nice tones from black to white. I didn't do any scientific testing with gradients and densitometers, but to my eyes it looked ok.

jordanstarr · May 9, 2011

I have some 11x14 ilford paper from that same timeframe and it's fogged. You could put in some benzotrizole in the developer to whiten the base and kill the fog. This has worked for me for mildly fogged paper, but it's not worth the risk unless the box is like $10 and you plan on using the paper for workprints or use it all right away. It will also be slower and require more contrast, will is a printing nightmare in itself.

Ronald Moravec · May 9, 2011

Take a pass for anything but free.

wogster · May 9, 2011

Ronald Moravec said:
Take a pass for anything but free.

If a box of paper normally goes for $80 and they want $40, then offer $20 tested, $10 untested. It's going to be fogged some, you can probably use it for work prints and cut down for contact sheets, so it's not going to be a total loss.....

NormanV · May 9, 2011

This sounds encouraging, I have obtained a box of 10 packs of Kentmere 12" x 16", 50 sheets per pack, variable contrast paper dated 1999.
I have no way of testing it right now but it sounds that there is a good chancethat it will be ok.
Norman

Thomas Bertilsson · May 9, 2011

The only way of knowing if it will be acceptable to you, or not, will be to test it side by side with a piece of fresh paper, of the same kind.

Anything else is a crap shoot, and if you don't know what to expect in the darkroom, it might make life difficult for you, down the road, if you decide to reprint pictures that you made on this paper in the future. But we all like different things. To some aged paper is completely acceptable, and to others it's not. It depends on what you want to achieve with your printmaking.

- Thomas

bwrules · May 9, 2011

It depends on the paper. Ilford probably ages rather quickly. I was recently given some five year old paper. Some Kodak Polymax FB - totally useless - heavy fog. Some Forte Polywarmtone FB - useless - can't squeeze enough contrast out of it, lost speed. I wouldn't bet on it.

The slower the paper, (ISO speed) the better it keeps.

bwrules · May 9, 2011

I remember Kentmere as being a very fast paper. I doubt it will be without fog.

Simon R Galley · May 10, 2011

Dear All,

Paper age, fog levels and useability are entirely subject to how the paper has been stored since its manufacture.

The paper is very stable when manufactured and stored correctly, and thats the key, when we say store in a dry and cool area thats what we mean, the drier and cooler the better. We have all seen examples of paper 10 years older or more that is perfectly usable, incidently, and to the best of my knowledge no one has done a scientific or psuedo scientific test between the various manufacturers but I doubt they vary a huge amount, the grade and quality of the ancillary chemicals used in manufacture has one of the biggest effects, needless to say ILFORD Photo only use the highest quality. Our QC regime demands a 5 year safe life stored at 20c or below, in 25 years with the company I have never seen a QC for any of our paper products for base fog less than that, we have obviously had a few 'abused' boxes.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

bwrules · May 10, 2011

Simon R Galley said:
Dear All,

Our QC regime demands a 5 year safe life stored at 20c or below, in 25 years with the company I have never seen a QC for any of our paper products for base fog less than that, we have obviously had a few 'abused' boxes.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

This is very useful to know. Thanks.

Ian C · May 10, 2011

I agree with post #18. I have some Ilford MGIV FB purchased in 1990 and some from the mid to late 1990s that behaves as new. All has been kept in a cool dry basement darkroom that is kept dry with a dehumidifier in the humid months in addition to this being in an air conditioned house. I do all toning outdoors so as not to contaminate the paper with the fumes of toning.

2F/2F · May 10, 2011

It is probably usable for something, but that sounds far too expensive to me. I'd pay 10 bucks for it, or pass.

Also, remember that the box probably cost the guy not much more than $40 when it was new. Ilford paper has gone up in price significantly since the early aughts.

john_s · May 11, 2011

I recently PMed Simon Galley about some Multigrade that I was not happy with and he responded that it was October 2004, stored at room temp. The paper was free of fog, but absolutely limited to about Grade 2 no matter what I illuminated it with (incl strong violet cold light tube).

Apart from that, the paper is fine, and I'm using it for some older negatives, made before I realised that manufacturers' dev times can be a bit on the long side.

ozphoto · May 11, 2011

I have some old Ilford paper from the late 80s early 90s and it's still going strong. Usually I use it for contacts or the Postcard exchange - it was free, which is a bonus.

Personally, old paper I'd pay $5 max for - and then only if I *really* want it; did score on some old Agfa Brovira from the 70s that was perfect. Unknown storage, but the results were stunning. (30 sheets went out in a recent Postcard Exchange.)

Thomas Bertilsson · May 11, 2011

So, what can be summarized from this thread is that the condition of the paper will be analogous with how it was stored, and what other types of harm it may have been exposed to, like toner fumes.

Again, you have to compare the paper, side by side, with fresh paper to be able to tell if it will be acceptable to you or not. Because unless you stored the paper yourself, there is no way of knowing how it was actually cared for prior to you owning it. There are no guarantees with eight year old paper. It may still be perfect. And it may not be.

john_s · May 11, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
So, what can be summarized from this thread is that the condition of the paper will be analogous with how it was stored, and what other types of harm it may have been exposed to, like toner fumes......

I would hazard a guess that graded paper will age better than VC, and cool tone/ neutral much better than warm tone. I still have Brovira from the 1970s stored at room temp that is perfect. Portriga from a bit later is terrible.

8 year old Ilford FB paper... Any good?

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