6x9 Folder Difficulty

markjwyatt · Dec 16, 2019

Calling Folder experts.

I have been using this Ihagee Ultrix 3860. It accepts 120 roll film or 1/6 plates (6.5x9 glass plates). I have loaded three rolls of 120 roll film into it, the third being pretty successful.

Ihagee Folder by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

Everything more or less works, except it is a bear to load. The 120 film drops into the unwind section which is composed of a spring to tension the roll using resistance, and two fixed posts which are basically truncated cones with flats at the truncation. What happens is usually the resistance gets very high as I thread the leader to the rewind section (which works fine). Usually it takes me multiple tries to get the film to rewind with low enough resistance for success. I end up pulling the film in and out, re-positioning it, etc. until it is able to rotate freely, and I can start winding. I wind until the large arrow shows up (just like my Mamiya TLRs), then close the back. Other than that it starts working (except for the fact that I have never managed to capture the first shot!, at least with Tri-X).

Once I start shooting there is enough wrap that I can wind, but sometimes it seems to take a lot of effort, so I suspect the resistance changes, and I do end up with some scratches on the negatives. Anyone come across this type of static rewind fixture? Are new plastic 120 spools different enough that it could explain these issues? Here is a shot of the unwind fixture. Everything is a fixed structure- nothing turns:

unwindFixture2 by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

Here is a typical picture (shot at close focus near wide open)

Orange Tree by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

Bill Burk · Dec 16, 2019

The spring on the unwind side looks bent and is probably the reason it’s too tight at first. Springs should put gentle pressure on a full roll. That looks tweaked.

markjwyatt · Dec 16, 2019

Bill Burk said:
The spring on the unwind side looks bent and is probably the reason it’s too tight at first. Springs should put gentle pressure on a full roll. That looks tweaked.

Could be. I am suspecting the spring. When I put an empty spool in, it seems to turn pretty freely.

On the other hand, they spring does need to maintain pressure also.

BAC1967 · Dec 16, 2019

The camera was made for the old metal spools. The plastic spools could be a little tight in there causing some resistance since the flanges are slightly thicker. I agree that the spring looks bent. Some cameras don't have a spring and they seem to work fine.

Dan Fromm · Dec 16, 2019

Rewind 120 film? Are you sure?

I ask because all of the 120 film I've used is clearly intended to be wound from the feed spool to the takeup spool and then removed from the cameras. I've never seen a 120 camera or roll holder (some people call these backs) with a rewind facility.

MattKing · Dec 16, 2019

Dan Fromm said:
Rewind 120 film? Are you sure?

I ask because all of the 120 film I've used is clearly intended to be wound from the feed spool to the takeup spool and then removed from the cameras. I've never seen a 120 camera or roll holder (some people call these backs) with a rewind facility.

I agree with Dan - "rewind" confuses me.
I prefer to refer to the "feed" spool" and the "takeup" spool.

Dan Daniel · Dec 16, 2019

That spring is best. Bend it out of the way. In many camera there really isn't a need for a tension spring. The bend and rollers and pressure plate provide enough friction to keep the spools for freewheeling. Try it and see what happens.

markjwyatt · Dec 16, 2019

Sorry- unwind and wind sections. Rewind is the opposite of unwind, but does not fit here.

NedL · Dec 16, 2019

That's a cool camera! If it was mine, I'd try bending that spring back just a little and see if it helps... if it does, bend it little by little until it seems good.
Good luck and have fun with that neat camera.

reddesert · Dec 16, 2019

I don't know that camera, but it wouldn't surprise me if those silver colored pin rollers were intended to turn, once upon a time, and have gotten sticky or frozen with age.

markjwyatt · Dec 16, 2019

reddesert said:
I don't know that camera, but it wouldn't surprise me if those silver colored pin rollers were intended to turn, once upon a time, and have gotten sticky or frozen with age.

Thanks, but they do turn. The spring sounds like the issue. I will try and bend it back a little.

xya · Dec 17, 2019

Dan Fromm said:
Rewind 120 film? Are you sure?

I ask because all of the 120 film I've used is clearly intended to be wound from the feed spool to the takeup spool and then removed from the cameras. I've never seen a 120 camera or roll holder (some people call these backs) with a rewind facility.

there are 120 cameras with rewind indeed. I own several Certo Super Sport Dolly which have this feature. there is even a notepad to note at which exposure you were if you want to continue later. I made a page about it here http://www.120folder.com/certo_ssd.htm sorry for the off subject...

Dan Fromm · Dec 17, 2019

xya said:
there are 120 cameras with rewind indeed. I own several Certo Super Sport Dolly which have this feature. there is even a notepad to note at which exposure you were if you want to continue later. I made a page about it here http://www.120folder.com/certo_ssd.htm sorry for the off subject...

Interesting. How well does the rewind feature work? Is it to be used only mid-roll or after the last exposure has been taken?

xya · Dec 17, 2019

Dan Fromm said:
Interesting. How well does the rewind feature work? Is it to be used only mid-roll or after the last exposure has been taken?

it works well, no problem, but it was only intended to be used if you hadn't finished the film yet and you were in need of a different film or a single exposure on plate. we should keep in mind that in those days a roll of film was up to half a day's salary, so you tried to get most out of it. if you try to rewind past the last picture it could jam. as the end of the film isn't glued to the backing paper, paper and film could separate...

Dan Fromm · Dec 17, 2019

xya said:
it works well, no problem, but it was only intended to be used if you hadn't finished the film yet and you were in need of a different film or a single exposure on plate. we should keep in mind that in those days a roll of film was up to half a day's salary, so you tried to get most out of it. if you try to rewind past the last picture it could jam. as the end of the film isn't glued to the backing paper, paper and film could separate...

That's what I thought. Taped, by the way, not glued.

markjwyatt · Dec 17, 2019

Thanks, everyone. I played with the spring, and after a little bending managed to easily load a test roll (old VPS III). If Tri-X is difficult, I might conclude that something has changed with packaging over time (thicker film or paper insert, etc.). If I remember, when I unpackage the next roll of Tri-X, I will measure diameters.

Agulliver · Dec 18, 2019

I do not own that specific camera, but I use a lot of vintage 120 cameras from the 1930s and older. I've not found any compatibility issues regarding plastic spools and modern films. But that spring does look like it's bent, and may even not be necessary. I concur with those who suspect this is the problem.

markjwyatt · Feb 1, 2020

Things working much better now. Here are a couple of recent shots:

American River by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

Golden Gate View by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr

guangong · Feb 1, 2020

If that were my camera I would clean up with a Qtip and Brasso. Nice scenic pictures.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 1, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
Rewind 120 film? Are you sure?

I ask because all of the 120 film I've used is clearly intended to be wound from the feed spool to the takeup spool and then removed from the cameras. I've never seen a 120 camera or roll holder (some people call these backs) with a rewind facility.

Yeah, 120 film is only taped to backing paper at fwd end, so even if rewinding was possible, it should never be attempted as going back while pulling the loose end could create lots of problems with film itself.

thuggins · Feb 3, 2020

I have an old Voigtlander, and several others (Kodak Medalist comes to mind), with a similar arrangement on the feed spool. The spool is held in place with a spring/roller device instead of turning on a spindle. In your case the roller is next to the pressure plate, so until you close the camera the film won't want to feed smoothly.

You can attach the leader to the take-up spool when both spools are out of the camera, and get it soundly started. Then stretch out enough paper to seat both spools, put it all in place and close the back.

Alternatively, pull out the paper to about the start arrow and set the feed spool in place. Wind this strip onto the take-up spool until everything is tight and close the back. The problem with this method is keeping the proper tension on the paper so that it all gets started properly.

While bending the spring may help, it has nothing to do with metal vs plastic spools.

markjwyatt · Feb 4, 2020

thuggins said:
...The spool is held in place with a spring/roller device instead of turning on a spindle. In your case the roller is next to the pressure plate, so until you close the camera the film won't want to feed smoothly.

You can attach the leader to the take-up spool when both spools are out of the camera, and get it soundly started. Then stretch out enough paper to seat both spools, put it all in place and close the back.

Alternatively, pull out the paper to about the start arrow and set the feed spool in place. Wind this strip onto the take-up spool until everything is tight and close the back. The problem with this method is keeping the proper tension on the paper so that it all gets started properly.

Thanks for the tips. Bending the spring actually made loading easier last roll, but it is still tricky to get started. I will try removing both spools and pre-wind some next time I load it.

markjwyatt · Feb 4, 2020

guangong said:
If that were my camera I would clean up with a Qtip and Brasso. Nice scenic pictures.

Thanks, Guagdong. I cleaned the interior, but a little polishing may help.

6x9 Folder Difficulty

Moderator

Deleted member 88956

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency