6x9 crown graphic type camera?

GaryFlorida · Mar 24, 2015

Are there any such cameras where you dont have to remove the ground glass to take a picture and can use different lenses up to 300mm?

BrianShaw · Mar 24, 2015

Check out Linhofs

Dan Daniel · Mar 24, 2015

And Horseman VH-R. I'm not certain if their coupled lenses go up to 300, though.

locutus · Mar 25, 2015

with a VH-R and Linhof you still need to remove the ground glass to attach a normal baby-graflock back (like the Mamiya RB67, Horseman 69 or Linhof Rolex backs).

However there is a alternative of using a Adapt-a-roll back which slides under the ground glass like a sheet film holder or a Calumet C2, downside being that you need to use a 620 pick up spool for it.

The VH-R btw doesnt extend for enough to focus a 300mm unless perhaps its a tele.

Fotoguy20d · Mar 25, 2015

Why not just use a 4x5 crown graphic with a 2x3 toyo or calumet roll film holder. Both use 120 and fit under the ground glass.

BrianShaw · Mar 25, 2015

Gary... When usuing a roll film back it is most common to replace the GG with the roll film back and focus with a rangefinder. If changing lenses you'll want to ensure that the rangefinder can be also adapted to the new Fl lens using matched cam. Your OP seems to be mixing metaphors of roll film convenience with GG focusing. that can be done but not without some inconvenience

ChuckP · Mar 25, 2015

Horseman made a rotary back that lets you use a roll holder without removing anything. I guess you just rotate the ground glass in place to setup the picture then rotate the roll holder in place to take it. Anybody ever use one?

bdial · Mar 25, 2015

There are 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Speed and Crown Graphics, when used with sheet holders the ground glass is not removed. But they probably don't have enough bellows for a 300 that isn't a telephoto design. Not sure a 6x9 Linhof would either.

removed account4 · Mar 25, 2015

graflex slr's

GaryFlorida · Mar 25, 2015

bdial said:
There are 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Speed and Crown Graphics, when used with sheet holders the ground glass is not removed. But they probably don't have enough bellows for a 300 that isn't a telephoto design. Not sure a 6x9 Linhof would either.

Yes I was thinking of sheet film not roll film. Are there 300mm telephotos that could be used with reasonable shutter speeds (>125th) and say 8 feet of DOF on either side at 60 ft? Im thinking EV in the greater than 12 range. Thanks

BrianShaw · Mar 25, 2015

You do know that there is very little sheet film available in that size, don't you? You can always cut film to size, but what a hassle that would be.

BrianShaw · Mar 25, 2015

... and the more I think about your questions of late, why not just use a MF camera? Seems much more convenient. I use roll film backs on speed graphics but mostly as a novelty. For any "real" photography that doesn't need movements or large film for contact printing, I find a MF SLR much easier to use. Rather than a 300mm on a view/press camera I'd opt for a 250 on a MF camera, like a Hasselblad, with a monopod/tripod any day.

It might help if you discuss a bit more about what you are intending/desiring to do.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 25, 2015

Linhof makes a 6x9 Rapid Rollex rollfilm holder that will slip under the groundglass of any camera that takes normal 6x9 sheet film holders, but it's very pricy and not easy to find.

I think a 240mm tele is the longest lens typically used on a 2x3 Technika. If I want something longer, I use a rollfilm back on a 4x5" camera.

jose angel · Mar 25, 2015

GaryFlorida said:
Yes I was thinking of sheet film not roll film. Are there 300mm telephotos that could be used with reasonable shutter speeds (>125th) and say 8 feet of DOF on either side at 60 ft? Im thinking EV in the greater than 12 range. Thanks

I don`t get it.

1. You can use 1/125 on almost any camera. Do you mean hand held with a 300mm? It will depend on the level of sharpness you`re looking for. Does it make any sense to work this way with a 6x9 view camera?
2. 8 feet of DoF on either side... print size? You want larger or shallower DoF? It will depend on the print size, obviously.
3. EV greater than 12... possible with almost any lens and medium speed film (it`s not only the "EV", it`s also the film speed!).

Then the issue is which 6x9 sheet film camera is capable of carrying a 300mm lens.
And I`d add: which printing size? (I assume you will make some prints, isn`t it?)

I`m with Brian Shaw. It`s not only photographic theorization and good wishes, reality could make our projects a bit easier. Sometimes less is more.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 25, 2015

It occurs to me that Linhof did make a top hat lensboard to accommodate a 360mm f:5.5 Tele-Xenar on the 2x3 Technika, so there is that possibility.

GaryFlorida · Mar 25, 2015

BrianShaw said:
... and the more I think about your questions of late, why not just use a MF camera? Seems much more convenient. I use roll film backs on speed graphics but mostly as a novelty. For any "real" photography that doesn't need movements or large film for contact printing, I find a MF SLR much easier to use. Rather than a 300mm on a view/press camera I'd opt for a 250 on a MF camera, like a Hasselblad, with a monopod/tripod any day.

It might help if you discuss a bit more about what you are intending/desiring to do.

I would like to shoot birds (photographically) in flight from a prefocused, tripod mounted camera in a camo, bird blind located in their regular hunting flight paths. I want 6x9 or bigger format and plan to be no more than 100 feet from the target. I especially like front and 3/4 view shots. Large birds. Raptors, Herons, cranes, pelicans.. I have no interest in 1200mm lenses on 35mm cameras. I would rather put effort on getting close, being disguised as close range hunting. Big frame filling images of these birds on big film for 'razor sharp' (sorry ian) black and white darkroom prints to 20 x30.

I have considered Pentax 6x7, Pentacon Six, Speed Graphic and Mamiya. Budget is a factor and I like vintage stuff. I do not envison seeing a random bird an quickly raising the camera, focusing and shooting. I have no interest in this.

I have had shots I couldnt take because my lens was too big and the image would not fit on 35mm. If only I had bigger film, with this 300mm focal length lens. Crown graphic/Speed graphic seemed right since it has big film and interchangeable lenses to 450mm. I dont even need the whole size of film 4x5. Even if I compose for 6/9 I can print it on my 23C and still get what I want.

I like leaf shutters not big clunky focal plane shutters and big clunky mirrors going up and down. A nice leaf shutter to 1/500, tessar lens, mirror lock up or ground glass, sheet film (I dont mind cutting it). But now Im learning that DOF is reduced in LF even with the same focal length lens. Also, smaller apertures and longer shutter speeds are required. Obviously I cant snap birds in flight at 1/15 second if it is only 100 feet away even if it is flying straight at me. So much to learn.

I imagine pre focusing the camera on a tripod and positioning my blind strategically so when the bird flies into my focus zone I can be there to freeze him in time, forever or until something bad happens to my negatives whichever comes first.

Paul Howell · Mar 25, 2015

GaryFlorida said:
I would like to shoot birds (photographically) in flight from a prefocused, tripod mounted camera in a camo, bird blind located in their regular hunting flight paths. I want 6x9 or bigger format and plan to be no more than 100 feet from the target. I especially like front and 3/4 view shots. Large birds. Raptors, Herons, cranes, pelicans.. I have no interest in 1200mm lenses on 35mm cameras. I would rather put effort on getting close, being disguised as close range hunting. Big frame filling images of these birds on big film for 'razor sharp' (sorry ian) black and white darkroom prints to 20 x30.

I have considered Pentax 6x7, Pentacon Six, Speed Graphic and Mamiya. Budget is a factor and I like vintage stuff. I do not envison seeing a random bird an quickly raising the camera, focusing and shooting. I have no interest in this.

I have had shots I couldnt take because my lens was too big and the image would not fit on 35mm. If only I had bigger film, with this 300mm focal length lens. Crown graphic/Speed graphic seemed right since it has big film and interchangeable lenses to 450mm. I dont even need the whole size of film 4x5. Even if I compose for 6/9 I can print it on my 23C and still get what I want.

I like leaf shutters not big clunky focal plane shutters and big clunky mirrors going up and down. A nice leaf shutter to 1/500, tessar lens, mirror lock up or ground glass, sheet film (I dont mind cutting it). But now Im learning that DOF is reduced in LF even with the same focal length lens. Also, smaller apertures and longer shutter speeds are required. Obviously I cant snap birds in flight at 1/15 second if it is only 100 feet away even if it is flying straight at me. So much to learn.

I imagine pre focusing the camera on a tripod and positioning my blind strategically so when the bird flies into my focus zone I can be there to freeze him in time, forever or until something bad happens to my negatives whichever comes first.

A baby Crown, Speed, Bush with a roll back and top hat lens board. You can pre focus using the lens using the ground glass then put on the roll back and shoot. My other thought is to get a Mamyia Universal with a 6X9 back and 250mm lens. It the longest lens I can think off for a 6X9, but with a multiback you can shoot 6X6 or 645 as well.

jose angel · Mar 25, 2015

Ok.
So you need some 30" paper. Probably a 20" roll. Be ready to spend $300, $400 for the paper. And the trays, etc.
Then, wait for the light, f45 or closer will be right for a 20x30" print.
The bird. At 100ft, magnification is 1:100. You need a bird about the size of a Harley Davidson to appear in the middle of the frame with no more than 20-30mm wide (wings), maybe 5mm height.
Sharpness could be an issue here. The shutter speed should be high. Maybe over 1/500.
Not an easy task, I`m afraid.
Again, what Brian said. A smaller format will make things easier.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 25, 2015

So what is the 300mm lens that you have, and is it in a shutter with a high speed? Most 360mm teles for large format are likely to be in Copal #3 or similar shutters that only go up to 1/125 s., which is likely to be too slow for what you want to do. The reason to use a camera like a Speed Graphic with a focal plane shutter, is that you can get a higher shutter speed than you can with a large leaf shutter.

Another thing to think about with a 6x9 press camera is whether the lensboard is large enough to physically accommodate the lens you want to use, unless you have something like a top hat lensboard that gives you more space. A 4x5" camera will let you use a rollfilm back, will have more extension to accommodate a longer lens, will be sturdier with that amount of extension, and will still accommodate a rollfilm back, if you want to shoot 6x9.

jose angel · Mar 25, 2015

And if in any case you decide not to buy roll paper, say, to use 20x24" ($$$, too), the 6x9 format is not interesting anymore.
Think that you will have either to crop or to print at a smaller magnification than a smaller format provide. I -unsuccesfully- put this into consideration in a recent thread.
Once you were printing 6x9 on paper sheets, it is worth it to crop a 6x7 format to the same aspect ratio, or better, just to shoot and print a 6x7 full frame (or 6x6).

GaryFlorida · Mar 25, 2015

jose angel said:
Ok.
So you need some 30" paper. Probably a 20" roll. Be ready to spend $300, $400 for the paper. And the trays, etc.
Then, wait for the light, f45 or closer will be right for a 20x30" print.
The bird. At 100ft, magnification is 1:100. You need a bird about the size of a Harley Davidson to appear in the middle of the frame with no more than 20-30mm wide (wings), maybe 5mm height.
Sharpness could be an issue here. The shutter speed should be high. Maybe over 1/500.
Not an easy task, I`m afraid.
Again, what Brian said. A smaller format will make things easier.

I still dont understand why 300mm lens on 4x5 needs f45 and on 35mm a 300mm lens can shoot a 5.6? A bald eagle has a 7.5 ft wingspan. I dont know how long a HD motorbike is but 7.5 feet is pretty big. Im still trying to figure a formula to find the distance I need to be at with a given focal length to fill a given film format width.. For example. How far must I be away from a 7.5 wingspan bird with a 300mm lens to fill a 6x9 frame? I didnt realize the LF lenses were limited to 1/125th. I have seen many Compur shutters on 35mm cameras with 1/500. I assumed the size of the shutter would not reduce their speed capability.

Why do you say f45 is right for a 20 x 30 print? How much does a sheet of 20x30 or 16x24 cost? I have not researched sizes but I have seen much bigger prints than that.

jose angel · Mar 25, 2015

Resolution is a factor to take into account in a given print size, as is, according to your requirements, the depth of field. 20x30" is so big.

And the depth of field is related to magnification. So smaller formats have their advantages here. You may need to shoot at f45 for DoF in 6x9, while at a wider aperture for the same DoF in a smaller format. All this is photography basics.

I said a Harley because I think it is about 6-9ft lenght... a 7.5ft is certainly a big bird. You can calculate magnification with a 300mm lens, at 100ft (30 meters) it wil be 1:100... aproximately 25mm in the middle of the frame. Not a big deal.

There are not so many prints in 20x30", actually. Well, this is a "compact" size for Clide Butcher... In fact, I think there are not sheets in 30" (I know 20x24"), you probably need to go for paper in rolls. Check B&H for prices.

GaryFlorida · Mar 25, 2015

jose angel said:
Resolution is a factor to take into account in a given print size, as is, according to your requirements, the depth of field. 20x30" is so big.

And the depth of field is related to magnification. So smaller formats have their advantages here. You may need to shoot at f45 for DoF in 6x9, while at a wider aperture for the same DoF in a smaller format. All this is photography basics.

Why would DOF be different with a bigger piece of film and the same lens from the same distance?

I said a Harley because I think it is about 6-9ft lenght... a 7.5ft is certainly a big bird. You can calculate magnification with a 300mm lens, at 100ft (30 meters) it wil be 1:100... aproximately 25mm in the middle of the frame. Not a big deal.

But this does not solve for distance. . For Example: How far must I be away from a 7.5 wingspan bird with a 300mm lens to fill a 6x9 frame?

There are not so many prints in 20x30", actually. Well, this is a "compact" size for Clide Butcher... In fact, I think there are not sheets in 30" (I know 20x24"), you probably need to go for paper in rolls. Check B&H for prices.

This message is too short because the software does not realize I replied within the quote.

Besk · Mar 25, 2015

Extended lensboards for Horseman camera have been available on E-bay that allow a 300mm lens to be adapted. I have used a 240mm on my 980 on a flat board.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 26, 2015

With a 300mm lens on 6x9, you need to be about 27 feet from a bird with a 7.5 foot wingspan to fill the frame. There's a handy app called pCam that I like for such calculations.

6x9 crown graphic type camera?

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