645: Mamiya vs Pentax

JWMster · Sep 8, 2023

Think maybe my miscues with 120 cameras have been due to my favoring 6X6 and the resulting weight kind of begs the question "Why not 4X5?" as the "pack" begins to weigh in close to the same. MF lenses can be kind of bulky whereas many LF lenses can be quite small. That conclusion pushed me to the Rollieflex TLR which has worked fine - even within the limitations for most purposes. But maybe a 645 would be modestly smaller and more compact.... push some of the everyday shooter benes into 120?

But I do like the larger negatives I can see without magnification. The risk is that to my eyes, 120 seems to be unique in that roll film seems more vulnerable to mishandling somewherre in the chain than either 35mm or LF 4X5 which are both protected for the most part and easier to handle. I mention this because I find 120 film defects from time to time in the middle of the roll.... the image forms just fine, but it looks as though there's been a twist or a poke from rough handling. I don't think it's me either though I can't rule that out entirely. But I find these things ONLY with 120, so I wonder whether it's something that might happen in the course of slitting, rolling and confecting or whatever. Sounds unlikely to me, but anything is posible and I wonder whether I'm alone in this.... and therefore it really is moi.... but I've not mentioned this to anyone before. At any rate, it doesn't affect the image or the scan per se, but when the film is dried after development and still hanging before cut and sleeved, you see it fairly clearly.

My 35mm Nikon F4 does duty in the SLR category, and don't really need to duplicate that but hasn't got a lot of show lately - replaced largely by digital when needed.... even my iPhone these days. But the question I'm edging toward is whether to dump the TLR and 35mm and use just 4X5 and MF 645... and trade the TLR and 35mm for a Mamiya 645 Super or Pentax 645N. Pentax has Af and that has some utility, but comments about the dark viewfinder for manual focus are a bit of a concern. The Mamiya 645 Super doesn't have AF, but I'm wondering whether about the brightness of the viewfinder. And the risk in this move is that the Nikon F4 is a truly wonderful system... while the Mamiya might not be in the same league.... ergo the net gain minimal.... And if the only net gain were a slightly bigger neg that was less easily made and not of the same quality as the F4's production... than the whole would be a fool's errand just after a ride on another horse that after a brief thrill could soon lead to "Why'd I do that?" The TLR by contrast is just a wonderful piece of hardware... fun to shoot for the challenge of taking it manual... fully... but while I have a set of filters, doesn't really facilitate a yellow-plus-polarizer combo without a lot more futsing. It's a candidate who's served well but might be time to go.

Read over comments on MF collections and one that resonated: "We keep buying MF cameras looking for one that will get it done...." to which I'd add "Yeah we just don't have stores anymore where you could try before you buy" for these beasts, so it's pretty much "Buy-Try-and-_______" where ______ means "hoard" or "dispose". I've takent the hits and disposed using that dummy math that the unused gear is "found money".

So I'm open to suggestions, thoughts - even counsel.

pentaxuser · Sep 8, 2023

JWMster said:
and trade the TLR and 35mm for a Mamiya 645 Super or Pentax 645N. Pentax has Af and that has some utility, but comments about the dark viewfinder for manual focus are a bit of a concern.

I have a P645N and have never noticed any darkness in the viewfinder. It's the same viewfinder of course whether you move the switch to MF( manual focus) or not

I cannot speak for every lens that may be fitted to it from the dim and distant past but in all the current MF lenses the P645N has a green hexagonal dot that appears when the subject is in focus. If your eyes are good enough to see that then the green dot is all you need

The big difference between the two cameras is that the P645N does not have interchangeable film backs which allow you to remove the back by means of a dark slide and change to another back with another film

No point in saying anymore on this as I am not you and only you know how important a facility this is to you

pentaxuser

JParker · Sep 8, 2023

JWMster said:
... and trade the TLR and 35mm for a Mamiya 645 Super or Pentax 645N.

I would recommend to make the choice between the Mamiya 645 Pro or Pro TL and the Pentax 645N.
Because Mamiya had significantly improved the 645 with the step from the 'Super' to the 'Pro' model, including reliability and robustness (I am using the 645 Pro TL).
I am satiesfied with the Mamiya. Friend of mine has the Pentax 645N.
Both very good cameras, but with different concept. The Pentax don't has an interchangeable back.

JWMster · Sep 8, 2023

pentaxuser: Thanks! Oddly, there is no "LIKE" button this forum.
JParker: Thanks as well. Interchangable backs can be handy. One nice thing about MF is that you're not on a 36 roll anyway. FWIW, I spool my 35 into 24-ish shots for the same reason. Can I ask whether you've looked through both viewfinders for comparison? Meantime I'll check out how the specs differ between the PRO and PRO TL. Again, need a "LIKE" button.

JParker · Sep 8, 2023

JWMster said:
pentaxuser: Thanks! Oddly, there is no "LIKE" button this forum.
JParker: Can I ask whether you've looked through both viewfinders for comparison? Meantime I'll check out how the specs differ between the PRO and PRO TL. Again, need a "LIKE" button.

Viewfinder: Yes, I have. Personally overall I liked the Pentax viewfinder more.
The Mamiya viewfinder ist good, but has two disadvantages:
- the aperture is not shown, only the shutter speed
- manual focusing on the screen is a bit difficult, at least more difficult compared to my Nikons; therefore I am often using the split-image.

Sirius Glass · Sep 8, 2023

I use 35mm Nikon AF for light weight travel when I am not concentrating on photograph. Serious photograph including travel in my Hasselblad and Hasselblad SWC both 6x6, never 645. 4"x5" is for just playing around and has not gotten out much recently.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2023

The differences between the Pro and the Pro Tl are small. The Pro Tl is slightly newer, and the Pro Tl offers off-the-film, TTl flash metering with a few particular models of electronic flashes.

Steven Lee · Sep 8, 2023

@JWMster I own the Mamiya 645 TL which I can definitely recommend. It is easy to focus and there's a ton of accessories and focusing screens. The lenses are superb. I will say though that in practice it is not that much lighter than a 6x6 SLR like a Hasselblad. Its lenses are indeed more compact but the body is very much comparable, in fact I find the Hasselblad easier to deal with in a backpack because it is a symmetric cube. So what happens in practice is that my backpacking kit with the Mamiya weights more or less that same as the Hasselblad, unless I take three or more lenses with me. So the weight/compactness benefit is not really there, so of course I take the Hasselblad far more often.

Funny enough, both of them are very similar to my 4x5 kit from the weight perspective. IMO the primary difference between 4x5 and MF SLRs is not weight, as you correctly pointed out at LF lenses being very light, it's the speed of shooting.

I'd be looking at Mamiya 6 or Bronica RF rangefinders if I were in your situation.

Dustin McAmera · Sep 8, 2023

maybe a 645 would be modestly smaller and more compact

Not so you'd notice, if you insist on it being an SLR. You could get a Fuji GS645 rangefinder; that would be compact. Or a 1930s folder.

Don't forget there are the Mamiya 645AF cameras if you want the AF. You can't have a waist-level finder with it.

wiltw · Sep 8, 2023

Decades ago I considered the Mamiya 645 vs. Bronica ETRS vs Pentax 645. I examined all three in a pro store, and carefully considered the many differences in the designs. If choosing betweeen Mamiya 645 vs. Pentax 645, my preference would lean to the Mamiya...why? Because the P645 handle grip is attached at the very rear, so ALL weight is forward of the handle and there is zero counterbalance of lens weight by the portion of the body that is to the rear of the handle...a long lens especially exaggerates this forward weight bias in the hand. Handling all three bodies in the store allowed me to realize the difference in the mounting point of the handle to the body.
(BTW I chose the Bronica because of its in-lens shutters, which permitted use of electronic flash even at the fastest shutter speed...this was important to me because I was shooting weddings & receptions with rollfilm, and filling shadows with flash even in bright sunlit locales was important to me. And with metering prism combined with TTL flash it had the highest degree of exposure automation capability, which was important featrue in the sometimes fast paced shooting of weddings/receptions.)

pentaxuser · Sep 8, 2023

wiltw said:
Decades ago I considered the Mamiya 645 vs. Bronica ETRS vs Pentax 645. I examined all three in a pro store, and carefully considered the many differences in the designs. If choosing betweeen Mamiya 645 vs. Pentax 645, my preference would lean to the Mamiya...why? Because the P645 handle grip is attached at the very rear, so ALL weight is forward of the handle and there is zero counterbalance of lens weight by the portion of the body that is to the rear of the handle...a long lens especially exaggerates this forward weight bias in the hand. Handling all three bodies in the store allowed me to realize the difference in the mounting point of the handle to the body.

The OP is interested in the P645N and not the P645. Is this a separate handle grip that you attach as an accessory to the P645 On the P645N a grip is built-in and shaped on the right side. I cannot see any way to attach a separate grip to it except by attaching a non standard grip underneath by means of the tripod holder or the tripod holder on the left side

So your grip is directly built in on the right side so it supports the camera body and your left hand supports the front box of the body. Of course any lens attached to the body is unsupported on the front but then only the lens applies some weight leverage to the front as lenses do on most cameras

I may of course be wrong about there being no Pentax grip designed for the P645N. Can you say what this grip is and where and how it fits the P645N

I should add that the P645N is not a light camera but that true of most if not all the medium format SLRs

Thanks

pentaxuser

JWMster · Sep 8, 2023

Yep: Mamiya 6 RF is an appealing camera. NOT BUYING it some years ago 'cause it was too expensive and the angst about "too electronic" means I've watched it rise in price by some measure. And yeah... about all I need is a wide angle and a portrait lens. But that's gonna run biggety biggety bucks... so maybe a 645 Mamiya or Pentax might be configurable with as light weight as possible. Modularity of the Mamiya is good. Ability to run the Pentax lenses on GFX or on Pentax 645Z is a thought, too. Not a lot of youtubers comparing the two.... mostly Pentax fans go for the 67 which then runs you back north of the Mamiya 7 land.

After checking the fridge, looks like most of the film I have on hand is 4X5 and 120... so maybe I should consider giving up the Nikon F4 and just accept that Fuji digital is my "daily shooter" whenever it's NOT film. That'd been my M.O. a year or two ago but I couldn't pull the trigger: it's a great system. But it would throw some more $'s in the kitty. Much to puzzle through.

JWMster · Sep 8, 2023

Steven Lee said:
@JWMster I find the Hasselblad easier to deal with in a backpack because it is a symmetric cube. So what happens in practice is that my backpacking kit with the Mamiya weights more or less that same as the Hasselblad, unless I take three or more lenses with me. So the weight/compactness benefit is not really there, so of course I take the Hasselblad far more often.

Funny enough, both of them are very similar to my 4x5 kit from the weight perspective. IMO the primary difference between 4x5 and MF SLRs is not weight, as you correctly pointed out at LF lenses being very light, it's the speed of shooting.

I'd be looking at Mamiya 6 or Bronica RF rangefinders if I were in your situation.

Agree very much with the BOLDED text in particular. Speed is closer to a 35mm. The whole "makes me slow down" thing isn't really true unless as a digital photographer you're shooting multishots every time you pull the trigger. Reality is that aside from framing, we're cranking through the hardware that MAKES us seem slow, but we're working furiously to be ready for the shot. And then we wait.

Hasselblad is one system I've never really tried. Probably should. Really. Think I've had a mental block. The objectiv MF rental is looking like a better idea than blowing money down the wrong hole - again. They have Hassy's and Mamiya's. No Pentaxes. So there you are. I hear you on the RF for size, but I'm really much more of a SLR guy. Thanks for the input.

L Gebhardt · Sep 9, 2023

I went through the same thought process and bought a a 645 Pro TL and a nice set of lenses. I sold it after a few years because it just didn’t quite work for me as a 4x5 or a 35mm replacement. With the small power winder and prism it was a very nice handling hand held camera, but not a small one. On a tripod the need to rotate the whole camera was an issue. I cobbled together an L bracket that allowed it to rotate over the tripod head, but it added bulk and complexity. I eventually found I would take the 4x5 or a 35mm out much more, and I eventually sold off the system. I sometimes wish I still had it, but I doubt I’d use it that much.

The 645 cameras can use a waist level finder, but without a rotating back you can’t easily change orientation. The prism adds weight, but works great handheld. There isn’t a good built in grip, which also affects how you hold it when rotating to portrait orientation.

You can crop a 6x6 to 645, but cropping 645 to square results in a relatively small negative.

Medium format SLRs have relatively large mirrors so are not as easy to get sharp shots handheld in low light as your TLR. Mirror lockup helps a lot on a tripod, but blocks your view through the lens.

I’m always tempted to take extra lenses if the camera supports interchangeable lenses. When using a camera with a fixed lens I don’t usually find that limitation a detriment. A TLR with one lens will be much less bulky than the 645 setup with prism and a single lens. I personally find it hard to leave that other lens home, so I usually end up with a bag as well to carry, but that may be just me.

I eventually found a bargain on new Hasselblad and I’ve been happy with it, but I still like my 4x5 kit more if I’m going to use a tripod. The Hasselblad seems less bulky than the Mamiya the way I had it setup to work for me. Extra lenses are significantly larger however. If you have the option to rent a system first it could save you a lot of money and frustration.

JWMster · Sep 9, 2023

Larry: I think you nailed my initial thinking and a thought I keep coming back to: Shooting MF in an SLR will be big no matter how you swing it and maybe not worth the squeeze... which would argue for the 35mm and 4X5.... the latter can of course pump out 120 in a Horseman back on a series of different formats. Maybe keeping the MF SLR as a rental is the way to avoid buyer's remorse. "Rent what you need, otherwise, stick with what you got 'cause it works."

The thing that you're right as rain on: "If the camera supports more than one lens, you're gonna start collecting and lugging that stuff... and first thing you know, you're back with a heavy weight." Hassy's cost might stop that. Ditto for a Mamiya 6 MF. Rentals for Hassy's are out there. Mamiya 645's too, but not the Mamiya 6 MF. Then again, one of the RF issues lies in using a portrait lens for sweet bokeh... one of MF's signature gains. F4 on a telephoto reduced square in the RF might not get you there. Hassy CX runs about the same. Lenses are comparable. Size? Gets back to try before you buy. My original forray in this was to think about dumping the 4X5 in favor of MF in a 6X7 or 6X9 format... to get as big a negative as possible (think Pentax 67 - cause I bought a lens years back with an adaptor trying a retrofit for my GFX - or Mamiya RB67). Some honking size drawbacks there of course... but so I haven't gone there... 'cause like I have all this 4X5 film to use up at a minimum.

So I'll be taking my time on this. But it's good stuff and fun to ponder. Thanks for your comments.

Sirius Glass · Sep 9, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
I went through the same thought process and bought a a 645 Pro TL and a nice set of lenses. I sold it after a few years because it just didn’t quite work for me as a 4x5 or a 35mm replacement. With the small power winder and prism it was a very nice handling hand held camera, but not a small one. On a tripod the need to rotate the whole camera was an issue. I cobbled together an L bracket that allowed it to rotate over the tripod head, but it added bulk and complexity. I eventually found I would take the 4x5 or a 35mm out much more, and I eventually sold off the system. I sometimes wish I still had it, but I doubt I’d use it that much.

The 645 cameras can use a waist level finder, but without a rotating back you can’t easily change orientation. The prism adds weight, but works great handheld. There isn’t a good built in grip, which also affects how you hold it when rotating to portrait orientation.

You can crop a 6x6 to 645, but cropping 645 to square results in a relatively small negative.

Medium format SLRs have relatively large mirrors so are not as easy to get sharp shots handheld in low light as your TLR. Mirror lockup helps a lot on a tripod, but blocks your view through the lens.

I’m always tempted to take extra lenses if the camera supports interchangeable lenses. When using a camera with a fixed lens I don’t usually find that limitation a detriment. A TLR with one lens will be much less bulky than the 645 setup with prism and a single lens. I personally find it hard to leave that other lens home, so I usually end up with a bag as well to carry, but that may be just me.

I eventually found a bargain on new Hasselblad and I’ve been happy with it, but I still like my 4x5 kit more if I’m going to use a tripod. The Hasselblad seems less bulky than the Mamiya the way I had it setup to work for me. Extra lenses are significantly larger however. If you have the option to rent a system first it could save you a lot of money and frustration.

In BOLD all reasons that 6x6 is so beautiful and as Hasselblad advertized "Square is the perfect format."

Pioneer · Sep 9, 2023

I bought and used both the Mamiya and the Pentax way back in the dim and distant past. In the end I kept the Pentax because I discovered that I prefer the lens line-up and I only rarely changed film backs. Then I added the original Pentax 645 camera without autofocus because I discovered the viewfinder was perfect for manually focusing. I use an adapter for the Zeiss glass from my Pentacon Six. I've never regretted it.

I used Fuji Velvia color slide film most of the time, and still do, so the idea of changing a film back for something different was not on my mind very often. Of course your needs may be different but if I think I may need to change film midstream I pack my Graflex with one or two 23 Graphic roll film backs.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2023

JWMster said:
Think maybe my miscues with 120 cameras have been due to my favoring 6X6 and the resulting weight kind of begs the question "Why not 4X5?" as the "pack" begins to weigh in close to the same. MF lenses can be kind of bulky whereas many LF lenses can be quite small. That conclusion pushed me to the Rollieflex TLR which has worked fine - even within the limitations for most purposes. But maybe a 645 would be modestly smaller and more compact.... push some of the everyday shooter benes into 120?

But I do like the larger negatives I can see without magnification. The risk is that to my eyes, 120 seems to be unique in that roll film seems more vulnerable to mishandling somewherre in the chain than either 35mm or LF 4X5 which are both protected for the most part and easier to handle. I mention this because I find 120 film defects from time to time in the middle of the roll.... the image forms just fine, but it looks as though there's been a twist or a poke from rough handling. I don't think it's me either though I can't rule that out entirely. But I find these things ONLY with 120, so I wonder whether it's something that might happen in the course of slitting, rolling and confecting or whatever. Sounds unlikely to me, but anything is posible and I wonder whether I'm alone in this.... and therefore it really is moi.... but I've not mentioned this to anyone before. At any rate, it doesn't affect the image or the scan per se, but when the film is dried after development and still hanging before cut and sleeved, you see it fairly clearly.

My 35mm Nikon F4 does duty in the SLR category, and don't really need to duplicate that but hasn't got a lot of show lately - replaced largely by digital when needed.... even my iPhone these days. But the question I'm edging toward is whether to dump the TLR and 35mm and use just 4X5 and MF 645... and trade the TLR and 35mm for a Mamiya 645 Super or Pentax 645N. Pentax has Af and that has some utility, but comments about the dark viewfinder for manual focus are a bit of a concern. The Mamiya 645 Super doesn't have AF, but I'm wondering whether about the brightness of the viewfinder. And the risk in this move is that the Nikon F4 is a truly wonderful system... while the Mamiya might not be in the same league.... ergo the net gain minimal.... And if the only net gain were a slightly bigger neg that was less easily made and not of the same quality as the F4's production... than the whole would be a fool's errand just after a ride on another horse that after a brief thrill could soon lead to "Why'd I do that?" The TLR by contrast is just a wonderful piece of hardware... fun to shoot for the challenge of taking it manual... fully... but while I have a set of filters, doesn't really facilitate a yellow-plus-polarizer combo without a lot more futsing. It's a candidate who's served well but might be time to go.

Read over comments on MF collections and one that resonated: "We keep buying MF cameras looking for one that will get it done...." to which I'd add "Yeah we just don't have stores anymore where you could try before you buy" for these beasts, so it's pretty much "Buy-Try-and-_______" where ______ means "hoard" or "dispose". I've takent the hits and disposed using that dummy math that the unused gear is "found money".

So I'm open to suggestions, thoughts - even counsel.

there is no atofocus for LF;that kills it for me. It is also far more laborious to operate. Stick to 120!

Steven Lee · Sep 9, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
there is no atofocus for LF

Photographer Builds the World's First Autofocus 4x5 Camera

Modernizing a classic.

petapixel.com

SodaAnt · Sep 9, 2023

You could stick with a TLR, but trade your Rollieflex in on a Mamiya C330. That way you retain all the advantages of a TLR, but with interchangeable lenses (and there aren’t too many of them, so no danger of accumulating a lot of stuff).

braxus · Sep 10, 2023

I've owned both versions of the Pentax 645 except the NII. I have the original 645 now (and its up for sale), and also the Pentax 645N. The N is way better a camera in terms of use, though the viewscreen doesn't as easily allow focusing on the manual focus lenses as the first version does. You need to find an optional screen for the N to have the fresnal for focusing in the center on the optional screen. That said I am planning to trade up to the Mamiya 645 AF camera, because my eyes suck these days and focusing has become an issue. The N does AF as well, but the AF lenses cost twice as much. Im told the Mamiya lenses are sharper then the Pentax ones. Maybe even more clinical as well. Some say the Pentax lenses have a warmer tone to them, sort of a closer rendition to Contax lenses. The Pentax is more compact than the Mamiya, but the Pentax doesnt allow film changes part way, where as the film back in the Mamiya does. As such the Mamiya weighs more. The prices on the Mamiya AF bodies are way up there now. Pentax 645 is still affordable. The non AF bodies on both brands are significantly cheaper. I will trade up to the Mamiya at some point.

wiltw · Sep 10, 2023

pentaxuser said:
The OP is interested in the P645N and not the P645. Is this a separate handle grip that you attach as an accessory to the P645 On the P645N a grip is built-in and shaped on the right side. I cannot see any way to attach a separate grip to it except by attaching a non standard grip underneath by means of the tripod holder or the tripod holder on the left side

So your grip is directly built in on the right side so it supports the camera body and your left hand supports the front box of the body. Of course any lens attached to the body is unsupported on the front but then only the lens applies some weight leverage to the front as lenses do on most cameras

I may of course be wrong about there being no Pentax grip designed for the P645N. Can you say what this grip is and where and how it fits the P645N

I should add that the P645N is not a light camera but that true of most if not all the medium format SLRs

Thanks

pentaxuser

Taken from https://shootitwithfilm.com/pentax-645n-film-camera-review/ is an overhead view of the Pentax 645N, which I post here:

One can clearly see its integral handle (body cannot be operated without it) is at the virtual rear of the body (only about 1/4" of the body protrudes to the rear of the handle), whereas M645 and Bronice ETRS place their optional grips much farther forward on the body (centered on the tripod mount hole) So the film magazine cannot counterbalance the mounted lens in any way, with the Pentax design. And the contemporary 135 format photographer seems to frequently hold the camera by its grip, with under-lens support by the left hand often lacking, so that basic behavior carries forward to larger formats that are adopted..

benveniste · Sep 10, 2023

For those people who regularly shot Polaroid "proofs," the Mamiya had a clear objective advantage. In 2023, though, subjective factors should dominate the decision. Pick the one which you feel will work best for you.

I have a P645n, and coming from "prosumer" 35mm SLRs such as the Nikon FA and F100 I don't find the finder to be dark at all. For manual focus, I was lucky enough to find a "new old stock" AB-82 focus screen, which I found made things a lot easier.

grain elevator · Sep 10, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
The 645 cameras can use a waist level finder, but without a rotating back you can’t easily change orientation.

Conversely the Pentax only has a prism finder, and with the original Pentax 645, using it vertically not an issue at all. I assume the same goes for the successors. There are tripod mounts on bottom and side, and it's at least as well balanced in the hand held vertically as it is horizontally.
It does enforce the good habit of holding most of the weight in the left hand.

wiltw · Sep 10, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
In BOLD all reasons that 6x6 is so beautiful and as Hasselblad advertized "Square is the perfect format."

And now, with the adoption of digital backs, Hassy has abandoned their mantra about the square format. Marketing.

645: Mamiya vs Pentax

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency