510 pyro : irregular dev / contrast issue

Hello,

I recently mixed some 510-pyro and have two problems.

First, when I put it in water, some kind of dark grain forms.
I developed a Hp4+ 120 roll and the result is the negatives are streaked with darker and lighter strip (especially in the sky). On a few negs , there is what looks like drops with a dark dot in the center. I assume that the "grains" I found in the water are responsible of that. How can I get rid of those ? I use tap water, do you think using distilled water would resolve this issue?

The second issue is dev time. I developed FP4+ @21°c/70°F for 7min, normal agitation (5sec/30sec). I use VC paper to print and I have issues printing because the contrast is to low. I have to use filter 5 which makes the results grainy and the masking work quite hard.
I think the solution is in increasing dev time but I don't know how much.
Do anyone have an idea?

I thank you in advance and apologies for my approximate use of english language.

Long live this great forum.

lnl said:

The second issue is dev time. I developed HP4+ @21�c/70�F for 7min, normal agitation (5sec/30sec). I use VC paper to print and I have issues printing because the contrast is to low. I have to use filter 5 which makes the results grainy and the masking work quite hard.
I think the solution is in increasing dev time but I don't know how much.

Click to expand...

I have been using quite a bit of 510-pyro of late, but I do not have an answer for your streaking problems. My exposure and development process is also different to yours. I'm shooting FP4+ sheet rated at an E.I. of 64 and using constant agitation in a Paterson Orbital using a 1+200 dilution.
Pre-soak in plain water at 20C for 5 minutes.
Develop for 7 minutes at 20C.
Stop in plain water for 30 seconds or so.
Fix with FX30.

I originally started with an 8 minute development time, but quickly found I needed to use G.0 paper to print, as a consequence, development time was cut back. This is the opposite of your problem - I guess you have been using the Massive Dev Chart times as a starting point ?

Unfortunately, information on using 510-pyro is a bit thin on the ground. Jay DeFehr (the originator of 510-pyro) suggests 6 minutes in 1+100 at 21C, but he uses constant agitation (probably a Jobo machine).. I would suggest using 8 minutes as a starting point for your development time if the negs are too thin. Increase this by 30 second increments if the negs are still too thin.

I forgot to specifie : FP4+ exposed at 125 iso.

I found dev times on Jay Defehr's blog. Indeed it's for constant agitation but he says that starting times are the same for manual agitation.

If I manage to get rid of the "grains", I'll try 8:30. See how it works.
I'll post the results.

Thanks.

paul_c5x4 said:

I would suggest using 8 minutes at 20C as a starting point for your development time if the negs are too thin. Increase this by 30 second increments if the negs are still too thin.

Click to expand...

Note: I'm basing my suggestion on processing at 20C - A one degree Celsius difference in temperature can have a noticeable effect on the final result.

I've never used 510, but the following may help diagnose/solve your problem.

Try mixing with distilled water. Your water may have impurities that cause some precipitation. Mix according to instructions at the proper temperature. Let the stock solution of the developer sit overnight before using, to make sure the chemicals are all evenly dissolved.

The streaking seems like agitation problems or unevenly dissolved chemicals (if you used the developer immediately after mixing)

As far as thin negs go, you need to find your own time/temperature/agitation scheme combination. Starting points are just that: starting points. Not contrasty enough? Develop longer. Not enough shadow detail? Expose more. It's really pretty straightforward.

I'm sure Jay will chime in here soon with his expert opinion, but in the meantime, you can try the above.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

Try mixing with distilled water. Your water may have impurities that cause some precipitation. Mix according to instructions at the proper temperature. Let the stock solution of the developer sit overnight before using, to make sure the chemicals are all evenly dissolved.

Click to expand...

I was thinking about impurities too, but wasn't sure.

Doremus Scudder said:

The streaking seems like agitation problems or unevenly dissolved chemicals (if you used the developer immediately after mixing)

Click to expand...

I actually do develop just after mixing. It has never been a probleme before as I was using ID11 or Rodinal which are very water-soluble. TEA doesn't dissolve easily in water, I will go a little slower next time and stir a lot more. The problem is I read that 510-pyro oxidise quickly after contact with water. I'll see.

Doremus Scudder said:

As far as thin negs go, you need to find your own time/temperature/agitation scheme combination. Starting points are just that: starting points. Not contrasty enough? Develop longer. Not enough shadow detail? Expose more. It's really pretty straightforward.

Click to expand...

I shot a roll this afternoon (it's diner time here in France), i'll develope it tomorrow and come back here with the results as soon as I print a pic.

Thanks.

lnl said:

I actually do develop just after mixing. It has never been a problem before as I was using ID11 or Rodinal which are very water-soluble. TEA doesn't dissolve easily in water, I will go a little slower next time and stir a lot more. The problem is I read that 510-pyro oxidise quickly after contact with water. I'll see.

Click to expand...

TEA is soluble in water at the rate of 149g per litre at 20C (according to wikipedia). Indeed, I find a quick stir of e.g. 3ml of 510-pyro in 300ml water is all it takes. The developing agents do oxidise fairly quickly, on mixing the working solution, it looks a bit like Bud/Coors/XXXX lager and when finished, has the colour of week coffee.

@lnl - what dilution of 510 are you using?

Might post over on Large Format, Jay still posts there and he originated the formula.

Mike

@lnl - what dilution of 510 are you using?

Click to expand...

I use 1+100 in a paterson tank, so 5ml+500ml for a 120 roll.

So, I developed a roll yersterday afternoon.

I used distilled water and there is no problems of "grains" anymore. The skies aren't streaked neither. First problems solved.
Let it be said that parisian tap water isn't suitable for 510-pyro usage.

I developed for 8:30 min, at 21°C/68°F, 1+100, with the "kodak" agitation (3 reversal every 30 sec).
I managed to print pic at grade 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 (DURST 707 Color) on Tetenal TT vario (glossy). I'll try on ilford MG IV (pearl) to see how it works.
2 1/2 was with a quite contrasty portrait (a spanish shinny day, under trees shadows) and 3 1/2 was for a parisian cloudy day in a park. So I think, the neg contrast is good now, as I manage to print photo easily.

Thank you all for your help.

8:30min sounds an awfully long time at a 1+100 dilution, but if it is getting close to the results you want, excellent news.

It may pay to shoot a few test shots of a grey scale target and seeing where your Zone II and VIII fall when printed on G2 paper.