4x5 View Finder?

bobwysiwyg · Jun 25, 2008

Hi all, did a search but couldn't come up with anything, at least not related to view cameras and a monorail to be specific. I hope to start fooling around with a Cambo 4x5 shortly. I happened upon something on the Web that 'appeared' to be some sort of right-angle view finder for a Cambo. It looked like it attached to the back, but I don't know if using something like this is worthwhile, and does it view the ground glass or replace the ground glass? Opinions and explanations welcome.

keithwms · Jun 25, 2008

There are various monocular viewers, most use the GG. I have a 6x9 one for my horseman that replaces the GG.

I nabbed a binocular viewer from a polaroid MP camera and fitted it to the 4x5 GG of my crown graphic. Heavy but kinda fun.

bobwysiwyg · Jun 25, 2008

Keith,

Thanks. Yes, I guess 'monocular' is the term for the one I saw. I've seen the binocular version for the Cambo, but thought it a bit pricey since I'm just getting my feet wet. I will be trying the dark cloth of course, but I have a bit of gadgeteer streak in me as well. Any thoughts on whether the monocular version would work?

keithwms · Jun 25, 2008

I think the monocular viewers are fine- you see just about everything that you need to see. For really critical focus, I feel that I am better off with a loupe. A viewer does allow me to work more quickly, but impatience is seldom rewarded, in LF.

If you need a quick-focusing 4x5 system for the field and aren't too worried about precise framing, then an RF-coupled thing like a crown graphic will make you happy.

I have no real use for my viewer gadget, to be honest.

voceumana · Jun 25, 2008

I think that mostly these viewers were used by studios so that when clients came to a photo shoot session they didn't have to deal with the upside-down image to view the composition. They don't seem to be very common in field use.

Personally, I find the inverted image on the GG helpful--if a composition holds together upside down, it will hold together right-side up, and the more abstract upsidedown image makes it easier to see form rather than get distracted by detail.

Charlie

bobwysiwyg · Jun 25, 2008

voceumana said:
Personally, I find the inverted image on the GG helpful--if a composition holds together upside down, it will hold together right-side up, and the more abstract upsidedown image makes it easier to see form rather than get distracted by detail.

Charlie

That's an interesting take on it. I see your point.

RobC · Jun 25, 2008

I have a right angle viewer for my Linhof. I use it all the time in preference to a dark cloth. Mine has a 2X lens in it. It is supposed to be used in conjuction with a fresnel screen otherwise seeing what is happening in the corners is difficult in anything but the brightest conditions. The cambo right angle viewer is reputed to be very good and compact for carrying.

http://www.cambo.com/

its in there if you look for it....

Ria · Jun 25, 2008

Personally, I find the inverted image on the GG helpful--if a composition holds together upside down, it will hold together right-side up, and the more abstract upsidedown image makes it easier to see form rather than get distracted by detail.

Charlie[/QUOTE]

I agree. For me it has to do with the fact that when looking at something upside down I tend to see what I actually see, (ie, vertical lines, highlights here, shadows there), as opposed to what I know to be there, (a house, a tree).
It seems to me there was some discussion of this phemonema in the book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"; although it's been years since I read it and I could be misremembering.
Ria

bobwysiwyg · Jun 26, 2008

All very good points. Mentally, we do tend to "fill in the blanks" which probably keeps us from focusing (no pun intended) on what we really should be looking at.

RobC · Jun 26, 2008

I wonder how painters and the old masters ever managed with composition without being able to see upside down. Large format photographers do it so much better don't they:rolleyes:

Bob F. · Jun 26, 2008

There is something to be said for the inverted & reversed image when it comes to composition as it forces you to think about it, but on the other hand there is a lot to be said for not having to stick your head under a hot sweaty darkcloth in summer, or fogging the glass with your breath in winter...

I generally use a monocular viewer (plastic - bulky but weighs very little) to compose and then check sharpness in the corners etc with a loupe. A Fresnel becomes essential when using the viewer with my 90mm (very useful even without the viewer of course). With the viewer the image is still left/right reversed.

No one was saying everyone HAD to do it their way. Different people have different approaches. It does not make one group "right" and the other "wrong".

Cheers, Bob.

bobwysiwyg · Jun 26, 2008

I've seen a couple of references now to either "bright screens" or "Fresnel." How do they work? If they are better/brighter, why aren't they useful with a dark cloth as well?

Er, obviously Newbie questions, so please excuse.:confused:

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jun 26, 2008

rob champagne said:
I wonder how painters and the old masters ever managed with composition without being able to see upside down. Large format photographers do it so much better don't they:rolleyes:

Painters often put their sketches upside down to check balance and composition.

Trevor Crone · Jun 26, 2008

rob champagne said:
I wonder how painters and the old masters ever managed with composition without being able to see upside down. Large format photographers do it so much better don't they:rolleyes:

The artist Canaletto used a camera obscura. This would have given him an inverted image.

RobC · Jun 26, 2008

Trevor Crone said:
The artist Canaletto used a camera obscura. This would have given him an inverted image.

But did he use it to trace perspective and building layout or to make decisions about composition.

RobC · Jun 26, 2008

bobwysiwyg said:
I've seen a couple of references now to either "bright screens" or "Fresnel." How do they work? If they are better/brighter, why aren't they useful with a dark cloth as well?

Er, obviously Newbie questions, so please excuse.:confused:

The light you see on a ground glass passes through in similar direction from where it came from. So to be able to see any part of the GG optimally you need to position your eye so that it is looking toward the rear element of the lens. That is why the centre of GG looks brighter than the edges and corners when you are looking straight at the middle. If from the same position you look toward a corner, it looks much darker and difficult to see.

A fresnel lens redirects the light passing through the GG toward a central position so that from that point the whole screen has similar brightness.

The fresnel lens has a fixed focal length and is therefore ideally suited to only one focal length objective lens. Change to a long focal length lens and it won't work as well. Infact it is wide angle lenses which benefit most from using a fresnel. It can be tricky focussing with a loupe when you are using a fresnel. But with a right angle viewer which only has one fixed and central viewing point, it helps. Some like them. Others don't.

Trevor Crone · Jun 26, 2008

rob champagne said:
But did he use it to trace perspective and building layout or to make decisions about composition.

Rob,
This may be of interest. I love his work he had a 'view camera's eye'.

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/c...Publisher.woa/wa/artistBiography?artistID=124

Trevor Crone · Jun 26, 2008

I use an angled finder (Horseman) with my 6x9cm view camera. Bulky but the increase in magnification does help on the small screen. I don't bother on the 5x4 prefering the inverted image, which I find helps with composition, I seem more aware of design aspects. Picture elements seem to be more obvious within the frame when looking at them upside down.

Martin Aislabie · Jun 26, 2008

Ebony Wide Angle Fresnel

bobwysiwyg said:
I've seen a couple of references now to either "bright screens" or "Fresnel." How do they work? If they are better/brighter, why aren't they useful with a dark cloth as well?

Er, obviously Newbie questions, so please excuse.:confused:

Bob, I have recently invested in an Ebony Wide Angle Fresnel - and its some of the best money I have spent.

I would recommend them to anyone

I can now easily see the image on the GG without the Darkcloth and with a Darkcloth it is realy realy bright

I find it helps when I check the GG composition - particularly in the corners

The Wide Angle Fresnel works on lens lenghts upto 150mm

I have an Ebony camera but it should fit OK with any other camera too - it goes your side of the ground glass, with the Fresnel lens on your side too.

You then need a Protective Glass to protect the Fresnel.

Martin

bobwysiwyg · Jun 26, 2008

Martin,

Thanks for the info. I might look into one. Anything that might help these tired, old eyes would be a help.

Bob

bobwysiwyg · Jul 8, 2008

Martin Aislabie said:
Bob, I have recently invested in an Ebony Wide Angle Fresnel - and its some of the best money I have spent.

I would recommend them to anyone

I can now easily see the image on the GG without the Darkcloth and with a Darkcloth it is realy realy bright

I find it helps when I check the GG composition - particularly in the corners

The Wide Angle Fresnel works on lens lenghts upto 150mm

I have an Ebony camera but it should fit OK with any other camera too - it goes your side of the ground glass, with the Fresnel lens on your side too.

You then need a Protective Glass to protect the Fresnel.

Martin

I found my way back to this post. I've acquired a Fresnel screen for my 4x5 and just want to make sure I understand this correctly, that is the order and facing of each.

1) Ground glass with the ground surface facing the lens.
2) On top of this, the Fresnel lens with the circular pattern facing the rear.
3) A protective cover for the Fresnel lens.

Seems to make for a fairly thick sandwich, but it should all fit under the retaining clips on the back..I hope.

Just looking for some verification, aka Newbie assurance.

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 8, 2008

It depends, but normally you want the groundglass in its original position, fresnel with the circular pattern facing the lens, and you may or may not use a protective cover or grid overlay over that. The main thing is that you don't change the location of the groundglass surface when you put in the fresnel, or it won't be at the film plane.

There are a few backs designed to have the fresnel between the lens and the groundglass, as on some Graflex/Graphic cameras.

bobwysiwyg · Jul 8, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
The main thing is that you don't change the location of the groundglass surface when you put in the fresnel, or it won't be at the film plane.

I wondered about that as I was putting it in the first time, Fesnel first (facing rear though), then ground glass. I wasn't sure how critical that diff. to the film plane would be. Now I know it is critical. All very confusing to this newbie. I thought one of the advantages to the Fresnel was to straighten/redirect light to the ground glass which is hard to understand how it will if mounted behind the GG.:confused: Even mounted incorrectly, the view was certainly brighter into the corners and out to the edges. I guess that's why folks like them.

Trevor Crone · Jul 8, 2008

I use the Ebony fresnel, it's behind the GG, the frosted side of the GG facing and nearest the lens. On top of the fresnal I have my grid glass protector. The fresnel spreds the light more evenly once its transmitted through the GG making it much easier to see into the very corners of images projected by very WA lenses such as the 47XL.

To summarise:
1) GG nearest lens, frosted surface facing lens.
2) Fresnel
3) Glass protector/grid.

Bob F. · Jul 8, 2008

bobwysiwyg said:
<snip>
I thought one of the advantages to the Fresnel was to straighten/redirect light to the ground glass which is hard to understand how it will if mounted behind the GG.:confused: Even mounted incorrectly, the view was certainly brighter into the corners and out to the edges. I guess that's why folks like them.

Behind the ground glass it works the same way: directing the light towards your eye instead of off at an angle. Directing the light either before or after it strikes the ground surface gives essentially the same result. Putting it between the lens and the gg does afford the plastic Fresnel physical protection, but some have cover-glasses as mentioned above to do that job when mounted outside.

Cheers, Bob.

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