4x5 macro work and closeup lenses

Willie Jan · Jul 15, 2009

Hi,
i am using a 120 rodenstock macro lens.
When using it at 3:1 i loose 6 stops of light.

Is there someone who did a test between using a closeup lens together with a macro and only using a macro lens? I would like to know if there is a quality drop when using a close up lens. At this moment i do not own a closeup lens, so I can't test it...

Ian Grant · Jul 15, 2009

I've used close up lenses on 35mm & 120 and there's a definite drop in quality, it's not so bad if stopped down well.

A shorter macro lens will require less extension, you could try an 80mm enlarger lens.

Ian

Willie Jan · Jul 15, 2009

with the 120 macro and an extra bellow in between i can get to about 74cm extension. So 5:1 is possible. With a closeup, i could get further...

most enlarger lenses do not go further than F 32/45. The macro goes to F64.

Lee L · Jul 15, 2009

There is also varying quality among close-up (diopter) lenses. The vast majority are single elements. Some are achromats (doublets) and perform to a higher standard. The Nikon 3T and 4T (in 52mm) and 5T and 6T (in 62mm) are designed for use with lenses with focal lengths between 80mm and 200mm. 3T and 5T are +1.5 diopter. 4T and 6T are +3 diopter.

Leica makes a number of close-up lenses which are well corrected doublets and designed for specific focal length ranges. You can probably find a chart for them online. They are called Elpro and came in older roman numeral designations, and newer arabic number designations in 55mm mounts. I don't have all the info on these. Elpro 1 and 2 are for 50mm lenses, Elpro 3 for 90-200mm lenses, and Elpro 4 for 100-200mm lenses. Leitz recommends stopping down to at least f:5.6 for higher quality.

I think that some of the better filter makers and camera makers also made doublet diopters, but don't have specific info. The doublets are usually thicker and have a noticeably wider edge on the mounting ring.

Lee

KenS · Jul 15, 2009

You can achieve higher magnifications if you can find a way of reverse mounting your 120mm lens. Failing that, mount one of your enlarging lenses.

Ken

Willie Jan · Jul 16, 2009

KenS said:
You can achieve higher magnifications if you can find a way of reverse mounting your 120mm lens. Failing that, mount one of your enlarging lenses.

Ken

i think that is possible. I use a cambo lensboard with an adapter for linhof lensboards. Only firing will be an problem, but with these times i also can use a hood.

Dave_ON · Dec 26, 2009

If you want to get adventurous you can reverse an enlarging lens mounted in a copal shutter. There are adapter rings for such a task. I recently obtained the adapters but haven't had a chance to play with them yet.

Dave

Chazzy · Dec 27, 2009

Any chance that you could borrow some Luminars?

Q.G. · Dec 29, 2009

Willie Jan said:
Hi,
i am using a 120 rodenstock macro lens.
When using it at 3:1 i loose 6 stops of light.

Is there someone who did a test between using a closeup lens together with a macro and only using a macro lens? I would like to know if there is a quality drop when using a close up lens. At this moment i do not own a closeup lens, so I can't test it...

6 stops at 3x is a quite a lot. That lens must be a very asymmetric tele-construction.

Anyway,
Yes, while you don't lose light (as much) when putting close-up lenses on a lens to shorten its focal length, there is a price to pay for that. Using close-up lenses (whether on a regular or macro lens) produces a significant drop in quality.

Q.G. · Dec 29, 2009

Willie Jan said:
most enlarger lenses do not go further than F 32/45. The macro goes to F64.

While that may seem important, it isn't.

Stopping down more will increase DoF more. True. But the increase is from "nothing" to "next to nothing".
You will still need to change your way of thinking about how to get everything in focus that must be in focus. DoF will not be the solution.

What stopping down in (futile) attempts to get everything inside DoF will achieve is a rather huge drop in image quality.
Even the best, special purpose lenses (like Luminars) should only be stopped down moderately to maintain image quality at an acceptable level.

So a good thing, in a way, that stopping down will not produce enough DoF anyway.

Q.G. · Dec 29, 2009

Q.G. said:
6 stops at 3x is a quite a lot. That lens must be a very asymmetric tele-construction.

Forgot to add (the obvious - so perhaps not so bad that i did forget ): finding a (more) symmetric lens will reduce light loss to (ideally) 'only' 4 stops at 3x.

Bosaiya · Dec 29, 2009

Q.G. said:
While that may seem important, it isn't.

Stopping down more will increase DoF more. True. But the increase is from "nothing" to "next to nothing".
You will still need to change your way of thinking about how to get everything in focus that must be in focus. DoF will not be the solution.

I think this is one of the reasons why macro works so well with large format. Camera movements allow you to adjust the plane of focus in order to maximize the focus on the subject of interest. A good monorail will allow virtually unlimited bellows draw along with movements that would make a pretzel envious. Focusing in the 3-4x range should be a snap.

keithwms · Dec 29, 2009

I sometimes use a Nikon 4T closeup lens with the 120 AMED, and am very happy with it. That is a formidable combination. Offhand I don't remember how far the AMED stops down, maybe f/45, but I recall that it often isn't enough by a long shot and one has to think about movements to try to get a bit more focus control.

My latest macro weapon is the rz 110/2.8 adapted to LF; the lens is so bright that you really can work on the movements very effectively, even at high mag (beyond 3:1). The lens certainly isn't optimized for that kind of thing, and it'd not be a good setup if field curvature is a concern, but for everything else... bear in mind that a fast smaller format lens, at high mag, will cover LF. So I have put various nikon lenses, reversed, in a press shutter.

Experiment and have fun!

removed account4 · Dec 29, 2009

Bosaiya said:
I think this is one of the reasons why macro works so well with large format. Camera movements allow you to adjust the plane of focus in order to maximize the focus on the subject of interest. A good monorail will allow virtually unlimited bellows draw along with movements that would make a pretzel envious. Focusing in the 3-4x range should be a snap.

you can say that again!

Thingy · Feb 22, 2010

I use a Schneider Macro 120mm HM Symmar with 5x4, and used in conjunction with a Maxwell HI-LUX Ultra Brilliant Matt 4.7 focussing screen gives a bright image. I think the Schneider lenses are slightly brighter and easier to focus than the Rodenstocks, though this may be a subjective experience derived from my own lenses. I consider the DOF, stopped down within the optimum range, at a magnification of 3x to offer a few millimeters of sharp focus. With macro lenses you will get much better results than either reversing a lens or using a close-up lens. If you shop around, you can buy a Macro lens in good condition for a few hundred pounds. I paid around £400 for a mint Schneider last year.

I can extend my magnification by mounting the lens on a top hat and using Ebony's extension back which gives me an extra 90mm draw to my camera's bellows 365mm draw. The top hat adds an extra 35mm draw to that.

Rick A · Feb 22, 2010

Willie Jan said:
Hi,
i am using a 120 rodenstock macro lens.
When using it at 3:1 i loose 6 stops of light.

Is there someone who did a test between using a closeup lens together with a macro and only using a macro lens? I would like to know if there is a quality drop when using a close up lens. At this moment i do not own a closeup lens, so I can't test it...

According to the Manual of Close-up Photography, at that magnification, you need to increase exposure by 4 stops. Be careful when stopping down, too much and you will get diffraction. Enlarger lenses do work very well as macro lenses. Some longer focal length lenses will not function properly for cloe-up or macro due to their construction. Reversing a lens is most times a better way to achieve the results you are after.

Rick

Mike1234 · Feb 22, 2010

Bosaiya said:
I think this is one of the reasons why macro works so well with large format. Camera movements allow you to adjust the plane of focus in order to maximize the focus on the subject of interest. A good monorail will allow virtually unlimited bellows draw along with movements that would make a pretzel envious. Focusing in the 3-4x range should be a snap.

Some macro bellows for 135 cameras have front swings and tilts. IIRC, at least couple offer them on back too.

Willie Jan · Feb 23, 2010

ralnphot said:
According to the Manual of Close-up Photography, at that magnification, you need to increase exposure by 4 stops. Be careful when stopping down, too much and you will get diffraction. Enlarger lenses do work very well as macro lenses. Some longer focal length lenses will not function properly for cloe-up or macro due to their construction. Reversing a lens is most times a better way to achieve the results you are after.

Rick

"Manual of Close-up Photography"
i will get a used copy of that.

Thanks.

Rick A · Feb 23, 2010

I see its available at Amazon.com, I've had my copy for almost 20 years. Very good book many charts and tables of info, and loads of how-to and home built gear.

Rick

Willie Jan · Feb 23, 2010

i found one on ebay for 8 pounds sterling.

4x5 macro work and closeup lenses

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