4x5 Fuji Velvia help!

John Wiegerink

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I have 18 boxes, 10 sheets each of Fuji Velvia dated 1987 and stored in a cool place. 7 boxes are Velvia 50 daylight and 11 are Velvia 64 Tungsten. Any suggestions on exposure and development? I might have the film processed just to know if it's good and then do the rest myself as need be. Thanks, JohnW
 

hrst

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Old reversal films (at least Velvia) tend to show reddish-magenta blacks, especially this old. You can lessen this effect by overexposing and underdeveloping (1 stop pull; shooting at 25 and shortening FD time by 2 minutes).

I've shot some Velvia expired in 1999 or so and it showed quite magenta DMAX. Nice effect though, especially interesting in fluorescent lightning (compensates the green cast).

1987 may be almost unusable at normal exposure and development, it depends how cool it has been stored and what are your needs.

In addition to pulling, you could add some antifoggant (benzotriazole?) to first developer or reformulate the color developer. Maybe someone has more specific tips? I would also be interested.
 
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hrst

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Three examples;

Old Velvia expired in 1999 (or so)

Shot and processed normally.

First shot in daylight
Second shot in low fluorescent light, handheld at f/1.4. Magenta cast compensates the green fluorescent cast. Look at the window...
Third shot before sunset in warm light. Magenta cast by film + yellowish light -> red.
 

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John Wiegerink

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I would love to do straight Ilfos from these as I have 100 sheets of 16x20, 150 sheets of 11x14 and 50 sheets of 8x10 of Ilford Ciba A-II paper, but I can afford the chemistry at the moment. I'm thinking of just exposing them at the rated speed and taking them to our pro-lab and have them processed. That way I have a good stating point to go by. I'll expose the 64T to daylight both filtered and unfiltered and the 50D will be shot straight. I'm hoping that it being slow speed that ageing hasn't been to hard on it. JohnW
 

Athiril

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Test 1 sheet, expose the 50D @ EI 12, and take it to your lab if you dont have home chems and dont say anything, just process at normal. Check result. Possibly may look great without blowing highlights since its over 2 decades old at that speed, it should at least give an indication of effective box speed. You can then decide how you need to expose and if you need to expose over effective box speed and pull to minimise fog and colour casts.
 

Anon Ymous

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Overexposing to compensate for the increased base fog is a technique that is used for negative films. This one is a positive film.
 

Athiril

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Anon Ymous said:
Overexposing to compensate for the increased base fog is a technique that is used for negative films. This one is a positive film.
Click to expand...

Its not overexposing if the film has lost sensitivity due to age. Overexposing + pulling works perfectly fine on E6.
 
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John Wiegerink

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Fredric,
Maybe it's all Fuji-Chrome? I can't tell you for sure until I get back home. I am at my cottage and the film is not, but I will check Monday when I get home. I do know it is dated 1987 and it is 50D and 64T. So, now that I think about it you are more than likely right. Would I treat the Fuji-Chrome much different than if it were old, expired Velvia?
 

Anon Ymous

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Athiril said:
Its not overexposing if the film has lost sensitivity due to age. Overexposing + pulling works perfectly fine on E6.
Click to expand...

I know that you can pull process an E6 film.

But a long expired E6 film will show a color cast and reduced Dmax if exposed and processed normally. If you expose at EI12 and process normally, what will Dmax be? I mean, the test procedure you proposed previously will likely give quite thin slides, wouldn't it?
 

Athiril

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Pull process matched to the EI on old film would give the best Dmax afaik.

I cant give you a number, but if the film has lost sensitivity, the Dmax - Fog @ box speed I assume is greater than the Dmax of the same film when it was fresh and exposed and processed normally.
 
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John Wiegerink

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Keith,
That's part of my plan, but I just wanted to find the shortest path to the right road. I'm going to start searching the NET for all the info I can on Ciba/ilfochrome chemistry as I'd like to use the stash of paper. The last Ciba print I made was about 8-10yrs. ago and it's still as stunning today as it was then. I know of nothing that can compare to it for color, but I abandon color for B&W and that was the last Ciba print I made. Now that I've completely remodeled my darkroom and installed a new sink, thermal regulated/filtered water supply and a 4x5 colorhead I'm thinking of trying my hand at it again. I'll be 60 yrs. old in a few days and would like to do (and enjoy) some of the things I have been putting off. Lord only know how long I'll be able to flip the light switch in the darkroom. JohnW
 

hrst

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If you want the shortest road, overexpose AND ask for pull processing, as I recommended. So, shoot the 50 film at 25 and ask 1 stop pull. It can't go so much wrong.
 

2F/2F

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Does "a cool place" mean a freezer? If so, I give the stuff a good chance to be able to have some use other than cross processing.

If "a cool place" means at room temperature that never got that hot, I wouldn't hold out much hope for it for "correctable" pix.

Shoot one pic with each. Make sure the Velveeta is shot in daylight or flash and the 64 tungsten is shot in tungsten light. See what happens. It is all you can do to find out for sure.

Overexposing and pulling expired transparency film will only exacerbate the problems it will have from old age. If you test it and it lacks punch in the blacks, simply use it for pix in which you don't want punchy blacks. You can't print through fog to bring it back down to black like you can with a negative film.
 
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hrst

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2F/2F said:
Overexposing and pulling expired transparency film will only exacerbate the problems it will have from old age.
Click to expand...

What is this based on? Have you tried it? I have done this and have the opposite experience, as I wrote. I have also read similar experiences here at APUG.

OTOH, some expired Agfa I tried had yellowish low-contrast highlights and that would probably have suffered more from overexposing/pulling. Velvia was the one that had good highlight contrast but magenta DMAX and it benefited from pulling.

Of course, too much overexposure will make muddy whites, even if pulling, that's why I wouldn't recommend 12 ISO as recommended by Athiril.

One thing we probably agree is that testing is the only way to really know.
 

2F/2F

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hrst said:
What is this based on? Have you tried it?
Click to expand...

No, I am just saying stuff to say it.

How on Earth would overexposing and pulling help a film that has lost max density and contrast? It has lost rich blacks, so you want to overexpose it to lighten them even more? Then you want to pull to flatten the pic even more? No. You want to do the opposite, if anything.
 

hrst

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If you have done E6 processing, you may have noticed that push processing will reduce DMAX and pull processing will increase it. (For example, this old Velvia50 I mentioned, pushed experimentally to 200, showed a very poor unusable magenta DMAX.)

This is because when developing for a shorter time in FD, less silver is developed in the (foggy) shadows, and thus, more dye is formed there in color developer after reversal. This is same for expired negative material; shorter development (pulling) also decreases fog. But for reversal material, this is more important way to fight against fog as you cannot "print through the fog" like with negatives, but the fog can spoil your blacks when projecting.

So, the reason itself is the pull process. Overexposing is then "needed" to get it into right density.

You are right that overexposure + pull process decreases contrast (as measured from the middle of the curve) but it may still be better to stretch the curve to give higher DMAX... Pull process increases the density range, which is different thing than contrast.

I hope I got it right.
 

hrst

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Pulling Velvia

Here is a comparison; Velvia 50 1) shot and developed normally and 2) overexposed a stop and pulled FD -2min.

You can see that the process actually increases highlight detail.

Shadow density is about the same because this is fresh material with no fog. If there was fog, it would decrease in pulling but I don't have examples scanned.
 

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Athiril

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hrst said:
Of course, too much overexposure will make muddy whites, even if pulling, that's why I wouldn't recommend 12 ISO as recommended by Athiril.
Click to expand...

Well that'd be right for fresh film, if it is run by a lab/standard process.

If it's lost a stop of sensitivity, EI12 with 1 stop lab/standard process pull (developing time) should be good though I think.

But if you are doing your own, I suggest you try it sometime with fresh film by a way of other than decreasing developing time, ie: I'd suggest diluting first dev, or possibly adding extra restrainer.

If you mix your own, you can also increase hydroquinone to phenidone/metol ratio for more contrast.
 
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John Wiegerink

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Well, I hauled the box out and it is Fujichrome 50D and 64T and not Velvia. I have a few other things going at the moment, but will test it shortly. Thanks for the advice. JohnW
 
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