4x5 developing, close to giving up...

A couple of thoughts,
Large Format has a learning "Curve" exactly like anything we undertake in life. Each step of becoming proficient in any format is practice, practice and more practice. Any of the methods mentioned will develop perfect large format negatives, if one knows how to correctly use the technique. Tray development is absolutely the simplist way to develop LF film, but it also has many pitfalls that a beginner can stumble into, once those pitfalls are mastered the system is flawless.

SS Hangers and tanks are the next easy method to use, and in my mind mind the only practical way to develop my film. The tank and hanger method gets the worst possible reviews for only one simple reason,
that is the person doing it has no clue of what he is doing.

There is only one way to get any kind of surge mark an a hanger developed negative, That is AGITATION, yes I shout it! If surge marks are present you are over agitating you film! Nothing more or less! Every body that ever written anything about developing film has failed miserably aparently in getting the point accross.

The way I develop sheet film with tanks and hangers has worked flawlessly for over fifty years, because I learned how to do it in the beginning. The JOBO and all the others is simply overkill, not necessary and most likely won't give you the artsy negative you are looking for. But it will give you bragging rights around the lounge.

The KISS principal worksfor developing any size sheet film. The Key to using the KISS method is to learn and understand the agitation of the film in what ever system you use.

There is no short cut, money can't buy it, Your buddy can't do it for you, you yourself have to learn the basics, don't try to ride the LF horse until you have mastered the rocking horse. Or agitation if you will.


In this case, not my opinion, but a proven fact.

Charlie........................................

Don't give up just yet. Like you, my first attempts at LF film processing were done in trays. Hated it. Temperature contol was a big PITA and I always, always, managed to slosh some chemistry out of the tray during agitation and make a mess.

Then I bought the CombiPlan tank and never looked back. The film doesn't get scratched and you can agitate by inversion (or not) just as you would a SS tank for roll film. Yes, it is slow to fill and drain. No big deal! Use developers at temperatures and dilutions that give long development times (I've settled on 8 minutes as an absolute minimum) and the fill and drain times become insignificant. Since you alread have a stock of spoiled negatives from your earlier attempts, you can practice loading the tank until you can do it quickly in the dark. With a little practice, it will become easy and you won't have any problems.

I am using HP Combi and never got any scratch. I am also using Expert drum for 4x5, however when I do not need too much agitation I prefer HP tank. It drains slowly, you can overcome this by turning light off (for a short time) at the end of the developer stage, open top cover, empty the tank rapidly, pour prepared stop bath, empty and then fill with prepared fixer. Close top cover and lights on.
Jerzy

Charles Webb said:

There is no short cut, money can't buy it, Your buddy can't do it for you, you yourself have to learn the basics, don't try to ride the LF horse until you have mastered the rocking horse. Or agitation if you will.

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Charlie,
Have I upset you in any way?

By asking for advice, isn't it obvious that I want to learn. And if I don't "ride the LF horse" how will I get negs to practice on?

Sometimes I wonder if some of the members here need to hop off their horse... ;-)

Thanks for the tips with the hangers, it's definetely a viable option. And yes, I have learned that agitation is key in many developing methods.

jstraw said:

I love my combi-plans but for the life of me can't figure out how the teeth on the clip would make any contact with the emulsion.

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It didn't make contact with the emulsion. I must have used excessive force when attaching the clip, and somehow the teeth scratched the non-emulsion side of the sheet. This was E6-film, crossprocessed. Maybe the C41 chemistry made the film base softer and more prone to scratching. It's not a big issue, I'll fix it.

Whatever you do - don't give it up just yet. The world needs your crazy stunts with LF cameras.

I've done mostly developing in trays - it's a bit of learning curve but given some patience it'll work out fine in the long run. Occasionally, I've done one or two sheets in a tank and it has also worked okay. Everything about LF for me is "slow down, take notes, and if it goes bump down in the ditch, pick it up and do it again".

And hey, you can't just give up the dream of seeing your own prints from an LF enlarger, eh?

charlie is right -
hangers are one of the best ways to process sheet film.
i learned with hangers, processing 20 sheets of 5x7 film in dk-50
those were fun times
it was easy ---
but sometimes ...
the surge marks don't come from processing-technique, but from using
BAD HANGERS! be careful if you buy them used. sometimes there is
a bad one ( or 5 ) in the bunch and it will mark up your film

i had about 70 hangers at one point, and i used to process all my film in tupperware containers ( they fit perfectly! )
but the last batch of hangers i used had a bunch of bad ones in there,
and i was never able to figure out which ones were which.
my film had lines+marks on it from where the spring-bale and edges
of the hanger hit the film &C and after a few weeks of trying to separate
the bad from the good, i gave up and went to trays.
i have processed 27 sheets of film at the same time with no scratches,
usually i don't do more than 10 or 12 ...

the trick to tray processing ( if there is a trick )
is to soak the film in a water bath and cycle them
through and make sure they aren't stuck together ...
use a tray way bigger then the film ( like a 8x10 tray for 4x5 + 5x7 film ),
keep the film-stack together with one hand
( they will just float around being separated and all ),
and pull the film from the bottom
- with your fingers in the middle of the film-sheet pulling the film away
from the edge of the stack flopping it down on top.
i think in 10-12 years of trays, i have only scratched or had problems with one or 2 sheets.

as everyone says, it take practice --

good luck!

-john

Mark Pope said:

I started with Paterson orbital processors. They were an unmitigated disaster.

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While I started with a Paterson orbital and had no problems at all.

There is some sort of personal preference/technique/naturalness thing with it, as every method seems to have people who love it and others who hate it.

Also, coming from medium format I did find it rather odd as the Paterson Orbital takes so much less liquid that I had to change my developers and dilutions a bit, and I am still experimenting with different ones. Trying to reproduce something that works with roll film may not be the best option.

timeUnit said:

Charlie,
Have I upset you in any way?

By asking for advice, isn't it obvious that I want to learn. And if I don't "ride the LF horse" how will I get negs to practice on?

Sometimes I wonder if some of the members here need to hop off their horse... ;-)

Thanks for the tips with the hangers, it's definetely a viable option. And yes, I have learned that agitation is key in many developing methods.

Click to expand...

Not upset in any way, sorry I offended you! If your second comment is ment for me, again I apologize for bending your delicate nature, but if the shoe fits, perhaps you might try wearing it! If you can name one method of developing sheet film that does not require attention to agitation, please advise me!

Charlie...........................

Charles Webb said:

Not upset in any way, sorry I offended you! If your second comment is ment for me, again I apologize for bending your delicate nature, but if the shoe fits, perhaps you might try wearing it! If you can name one method of developing sheet film that does not require attention to agitation, please advise me!

Charlie...........................

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"Bending your delicate nature..." LOL! :-D

I don't know enough about developing sheet film to advice you about much, I'm sure. But I have found out the hard way how very important agitation is when developing roll film. I guess it's the same for sheet film.

I just use a 120 daylight tank for my 4x5" and 9x12cm developing. I use 900ml of solution, usually Rodinal 1+100.

If I'm doing one sheet, I just drop it in the tank, emulsion side in. If I want to do 2 to 4, I slip an elastic band around each sheet. Then put the lid on and continue with the lights on as per developing 120 or 35mm. I usually pre-soak for a couple of minutes. I use a a "low agitation" scheme, or stand development. The agitation is just a gentle inversion and back, each inversion cycle taking 3-4 seconds.

If using the elastic bands (taco method), you may need to remove the elastic band and do a final rinse in a tray to remove the final traces of the AH layer. I have found that for more stubborn lines, dunking the sheet in fixer again can help. I have seen others mention hypo clear, but I've never tried this myself.

I'm developing Efke 25, Classic Pan 200 and 400 and have not had a problem with scratched negatives.

The only problem I've had is when I forgot to use the correct quantity of developer.....Ended up with a high tide mark :confused:

Keep at it!

I did my first twelve sheets using tray development, and found that while the results were reasonably consistent as far as density goes, I would also very consistently scratch the hell out of the sheets unless I was sticking my unprotected hands in chemicals--which I really hate doing. So I got a Combi-Plan and it's solved the issues, no problems whatsoever now. Plus it's a daylight tank, which is convenient.

I suspect if I ever take up 5x7 or 8x10 view cameras, I'm going to buy dip & dunk style hangers and process the film that way, as it's easier to keep my hands out of the chemicals.

Justin Cormack said:

While I started with a Paterson orbital and had no problems at all.

There is some sort of personal preference/technique/naturalness thing with it, as every method seems to have people who love it and others who hate it.

Also, coming from medium format I did find it rather odd as the Paterson Orbital takes so much less liquid that I had to change my developers and dilutions a bit, and I am still experimenting with different ones. Trying to reproduce something that works with roll film may not be the best option.

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Same with me, I started with the Orbital, and I don't see why I would need anything else. I tried first with 4 "dud" sheets to see how much solution I needed to cover the film and it turned out I only need 150ml of DDX at 1+9. It is extremely economical. I did gouge the bottom of the tray with a sharp knife and had no issue with film sticking to the bottom.

Here is what I found by experimenting:
+ Too much solution (>= 300ml) and too much agitation will "raise" the film and make it touch the two blades from the cover, and leave marks. Don't do it. 250ml works great, 150ml works too if you follow the next rules:
+ Too little/too slow agitation will leave marks on the "outside" of the film due to difference of coverage.
+ You need to agitate by rotating the tray on it's plastic base /just/ fast enough so it doesn't slosh (you'll hear it) and stay at that speed.

+ The Paterson Orbital obviously float very well, so you can temperature control by making it float on a water bassin between agitation. Evne during the stop/fix phase..

I do my DDX at 24C with that method and it works perfectly.

I also pre-soak the sheets to remove the dye; it probably help brings the lot to temperature as well so it can't hurt....

I did over a hundred sheets now and not a single problem since my first experiments to find the limits of it.

I use trays and don't scratch film.

If you are a tray user you can make your life easier by using a glass pyrex bread pan for the developer and the photo flow... or all the chems if you want.

The glass bread pan tapers a bit at the bottom and becomes just narrow enough that the film will lie flat in a stack and rest a half inch above the bottom. You can then easily get your fingers under the stack for shuffling prints with out fumbling with it at all.

I process up to 18 sheets at a time with constant agitation and get even development and no scratches. I worked for several years in a commercial photography studio and this is how we all processed our film.

I also use a larger glass bread pan for 8X10 and I don't scratch that film either.

The 4X5 sized pan is about 4 inches deep and 8 inches long and holds a litre of chemistry just right.

typo. I meant shuffling sheets not shuffling prints.

KenM said:

While it may have already been mentioned (I didn't read each reply), you should try tanks and hangers - yes, you use a lot of solution, but you can be more efficient if you batch up your film. With the tanks I use, I use 1700ml of solution. I can run through three batches of 6 with the same stock solution. Due to the amount of solution, temperature stays quite constant without any requirement for water jacketing...

Using hangers also gives you the ability to develop each sheet differently, something a Jobo won't let you do.

I initially started off developing in trays, but after scratching almost every negative, I made my own set of tubes. They worked quite well, and I still use them on occasion, but I dropped them for my general processing in favour of T&H since the constant spinning of the tubes was making my wrists sore....

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And you can get 1/2 gallon tanks..pretty good for 4x5...EC