4x5 developing, close to giving up...

timeUnit · Oct 23, 2006

I've tried developing in trays using PVC tubes. First I scratched the films, which was my fault. Then I got weird spots as mentioned here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

and here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Now, with nice new Ilford HP5 Plus, I got marks from the fibreglass mesh I'm using on two of four frames. Negs look OK otherwise, but I can't have pictures full of squares.

I'm getting quite frustrated here. Shooting LF is so much fun, but developing is not, yet anyway. I feel like I started photography yesterday! (I didn't, honestly!)

I think I'll botch the whole PVC-tube thing, if someone doesn't have a solution to my erratic issues.

This leaves me with:

Tray developing. The standard way. I'm worried I'll scratch the films. And will it work with minimal agitation? I'm using 5 sec / 5 minutes.

Tray developing using slosher or cradle. Seems like a good way. How about the chemistry, will I use a lot?

Combi-Plan tank. I have one that I use for crossprocessing E6 dupe film. It works OK, but sometimes the holder scratches the top of the sheet. I might be able to fix that, though. But can I use the Combi-plan for both C41 and BW chemistry?

Anything else I haven't thought of?

Or: should I just shoot Polaroid 55? ;-D

Thanks for all ideas!

Henning

leeturner · Oct 23, 2006

I've been going through the same curve. Tray developing turned out OK with just a couple of scratches but I find it very dissorientating being in the dark for 10 minutes. I managed to pick up a Paterson Orbital which looks promising but my first test was blighted by bad chemicals so I'll reserve judgement until later this week.
I've not tried one but most people who use the Jobo expert drum seem to have nothing but praise for it. There is also the Jobo 25xx tanks which take the 2509n (?) sheet film holder that have also had good reports.
When I got into LF I thought that learning to use the camera would be the difficult part but like you it's developing the film that's causing grief.

Steve Smith · Oct 23, 2006

I will second the Paterson Orbital Processor.

Very easy to use and uses minimal amounts of chemicals.

There are a few other threads which mention this but you do need to 'rough up' the surface of the tray to prevent the sheets from sticking. Otherwise, you will need to do a separate wash to remove the anti-halation layer.

These processors were designed four colour print processing (four sheets of 5x4" or one sheet of 8x10") but work very well for film.

Steve.

GeorgesGiralt · Oct 23, 2006

Hello Henning !
I was, as you, having problems with my 4x5 negs.
I strarted on a tray (it's the cheapest way to go) using HC110 which is quite "greasy" there is no marks to fear (try to have a box of expired negs to practice on) but you've to wear gloves. So I bought cheap nitrile gloves, and got finger marks on the negs. (these marks came from the bad nitrile which reacted with the film, so ymmv.... but try not to use latex as some chemicals can cross latex, and some people are allergic to latex)
Next, I read that the Combiplan was the way to go. It was a total disaster. I won't extend on this subject as it is a pita for me, in term of wasted film. One thing to say is that filling/dumping take a long time so if you've short dev. times, this is a big problem.
Next, I've bought a Jobo 2521 and a 2509 4x5 reel. I use this combo like a 135 tank without a Jobo processor or rollers. This way, you have to put 1.450 l of chemistry in it in order to cover the 2509 reel but this will gives you the opportunity to make physical exercice ;-)
Since I've got this tank, I've practised a bit to load the reel without the special tool Jobo sells for this purpose, (it paid for a lot of film when I sell it...) But as I had a lot of badly scratched negs from the Combiplan, i was able to practice the loading without fear, first in normal lighting next in the dark. It is easy to load, at first with finger marks, and, with practice holding just the edge without any marks at all.
Now, I've bougnt a 2 reel 2553 and 2 2521 and reels to be able to process film in large batches. I will not regret my Jobo ! Last but not least, they will be used for E6 in the CPE2 I own ;-)
So my advice is to go fort tray processing if you can stay in the dark for long periods and can find good nitrile gloves or go for a Jobo tank and reel system ! They're worth the money.

timeUnit · Oct 23, 2006

As I'd like to use minimal agitation, a Jobo-tank is not advisable, right?

Mark Fisher · Oct 23, 2006

combi-plan

I'd go with the combi-plan. Are you really smashing down the clip? I can't see how you could scrath anything otherwise.

Denis P. · Oct 23, 2006

timeUnit said:
As I'd like to use minimal agitation, a Jobo-tank is not advisable, right?

With that in mind, Paterson Orbital processor (without the motorized base) seems like the way to go. You can get them used on ebay.uk, they are usually not difficult to find.
Make sure you get everything you need - read up on Orbital system, and check if all the parts are there (pins, etc.). You'll be able to process only 4 negs (4x5) at a time, but this should solve most of your problems.
Disclaimer: I have not used Paterson Orbital, but from the reviews I've seen, they seem like a very good idea. If I didn't already have a Jobo CPE processor and the tanks I need, I'd surely go for Orbital!

Denis

Monophoto · Oct 23, 2006

Henning -

I started out with traditional trays, but I found that the risk of scratching negatives was quite high. A few years ago I had an opportunity to try a slosher in a workshop, and liked it so much that when I came home I immediately purchased the material to make my own. For me, a slosher is clearly the way to go.

You asked about chemistry. In my case (and mileage does vary), I need 800ml of liquid in my tray when using my six-sheet slosher. For many years I've used HC-110 as my film developer, and have started using dilution H (dilution B with twice the standard amount of water). The net effect is to allow me to use the amount of liquid required by the slosher without increasing the amount of developer that I actually use. Yes, it is necessary to extend development with dilution H - as a rough estimate, it will be twice the development time with dilution B. But that's not bad either because longer development time assures more uniform development. In my case, the 11 minute development time with dilution H is not excessive.

I use a presoak (about 1 minute), followed by development, stop, fix, rinse, hypoclear, and wash, all with the film in the slosher tray.

For me it comes down to the fact that unlike tubes, a slosher doesn't require that the film be manipulated or handled in any way, and the only thing that touches the emulsion side of the film from the time it is loaded into the slosher until it is hung to dry is processing liquid.

timeUnit · Oct 23, 2006

Mark Fisher said:
I'd go with the combi-plan. Are you really smashing down the clip? I can't see how you could scrath anything otherwise.

It seems the teeth on the clip are quite sharp. If I sand them down a little bit, scratching will be minimized.

With minimal agitation, the CombiPlan, seems to be the best option. For more frequent agitation, a slosher might be better. Also, much better economy.

herb · Oct 23, 2006

film developing

Hard to say about scratching- I gave up on trays with some films, Efke for one is too soft, but Ilfords are pretty good as long as you keep 20 c temps or lower.

I use ss hangers, which take a big tank and a lot of chemicals, but I mix my own pyrocat hd from dry chemicals, and it is cheap that way. A lot of pros, Gordon Hutchins for one, have trouble with hangers getting surge marks, but if you lift VERY slowly and reimerse VERy slowy, it works, and you can do stand, semi stand or whatever.

Some ss tanks have daylight lids, as well. Used they are not expensive.

Donald Miller · Oct 23, 2006

timeUnit said:
I've tried developing in trays using PVC tubes. First I scratched the films, which was my fault. Then I got weird spots as mentioned here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

and here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Now, with nice new Ilford HP5 Plus, I got marks from the fibreglass mesh I'm using on two of four frames. Negs look OK otherwise, but I can't have pictures full of squares.

I'm getting quite frustrated here. Shooting LF is so much fun, but developing is not, yet anyway. I feel like I started photography yesterday! (I didn't, honestly!)

I think I'll botch the whole PVC-tube thing, if someone doesn't have a solution to my erratic issues.

This leaves me with:

Tray developing. The standard way. I'm worried I'll scratch the films. And will it work with minimal agitation? I'm using 5 sec / 5 minutes.

Tray developing using slosher or cradle. Seems like a good way. How about the chemistry, will I use a lot?

Combi-Plan tank. I have one that I use for crossprocessing E6 dupe film. It works OK, but sometimes the holder scratches the top of the sheet. I might be able to fix that, though. But can I use the Combi-plan for both C41 and BW chemistry?

Anything else I haven't thought of?

Or: should I just shoot Polaroid 55? ;-D

Thanks for all ideas!

Henning

If you have marks from the screen, you are not presoaking long enough or you are not agitating the tubes in the presoak water. Five minutes minimum. I leave the end cap off my tubes, in total darkness while I am presoaking in my tempering bath. I continually agitate the tubes in the presoak water. I aggressively shake the tubes with an end covered with the palm of my hand to hold the presoak water in the tube at intervals of 1:30, 3:00. and 4:30. This gets rid of the screen marks in my practice. I never have a sheet of film ruined today. My presoak temp is 75 degrees F.

If you are so concerned about the expense or give up so easily, than maybe LF is not for you. Everything comes with a price...sometimes the price is in our patience.

reellis67 · Oct 23, 2006

If you are looking for long development times in 4x5, try using a 4-reel stainless steel tank. No need for mesh backing, just slide a single sheet in there in the dark, cap it, and finish in the light. The down side is only one sheet per tank, but the upside is that the tanks are inexpensive. I have a couple so that I can develop a few sheets at a time using stand development. I also use them for standard development - I just put the sheets in trays for the wash and re-load the tank for development. While not as fast as shuffling sheets in a tray (something I can't do without scratches yet) it beats standing in the dark doing 4 sheets one at a time (for 9 minutes a pop). Something to think about anyway.

- Randy

Nige · Oct 23, 2006

surprised the 'taco' method hasn't got a mention.

this is where you put a rubber band around the sheet (emulsion in) and put the sheet in a 2 roll film tank (eg Paterson System 4). Some report you can get 3 or maybe 4 sheets in but I stick to two. The rubber bands stop them rubbing up against each other. Does need about 900ml of liquid but I usually use the same developer for 6 sheets as the capacity is fine, just have to do them in sequence so the developer isn't sitting around for too long. Beauty of this method is you putthe lid on and invert agitate with the lights on! With some films you need to move the rubber bands during the wash to ensur ethey don't leave marks where it hasn't been washed fully.

kb244 · Oct 23, 2006

I just use a small unicolor paper drum that can handle an 8x10, (2) 5x7, or (4) 4x5, and is fairly easy.

timeUnit · Oct 23, 2006

Donald Miller said:
If you are so concerned about the expense or give up so easily, than maybe LF is not for you. Everything comes with a price...sometimes the price is in our patience.

Thanks Donald.

As always, you have a way with words...

rtuttle · Oct 23, 2006

Hey Unit:
Don't give up hope. Tray developing is easy and should give you good results. Once you get used to it, there should be no scratching issue. I haven't scratched a negative in quite sometime. Remeber to use a wiping motion from the bottom to the top and drop the negative flat onto the solution. A pre-wash is manditory to get the negatives wet. I also use nitrile gloves and have never left a mark. Pull the bottom negative to the top for the 1st 30 seconds and then pull the bottom negative so every negative is on top every 30 seconds (approx).

You are probably doing the most damage going from tray to tray. Just wrap your fingers under and pick the whole pile up. Start with for or less until you get used to it, then 6 or so is quite easy. I use this method and have developed even Efke with no scratches. Check your trays for abrasives before dumping chemistry in them. Good trays make it easier. Just go with the flo.

If you decide this isn't the way for you. Jobo makes a large format tank with a sheet film loader. It's quite expensive (for a hunk of plastic) but it does work well. Again it takes time to learn to use the loader but once you can this goes quite well. I used to use one for 4x5 slides. You might be able to locate one on e-bay! They are designed I believe for rotation processing, but you can fill it and invert it like a 35mm tank. The down side being you are using a lot more chemistry so if that's your route consider a economical chemistry like Rodinal. I tried the rotary method and found trays were better for me because of increased contrast in the rotary method. Plus I enjoy the tray method.

Best of luck and don't quit. It can be done. Don't force it, just work with a flow and it should be fine.

BruceN · Oct 23, 2006

kb244 said:
I just use a small unicolor paper drum that can handle an 8x10, (2) 5x7, or (4) 4x5, and is fairly easy.

Same here - 8x10 unicolor paper drums, 4 sheets of 4x5 film to each, half a liter of chemistry with continuous agitation on the uniroller base. Ilfords numbers appear to be right on - 15% reduction in developing times on FP4+ and HP5+ with most developers I've tried due to the continuous agitation. If I want to use some other developing regimen, then I do them one sheet at a time in a patterson 35mm tank (it's the only reason I even keep that plastic thing around).

Bruce

PS - I have a like-new Yankee tank setup I'd gladly sell. PM me if you're interested.

canuhead · Oct 23, 2006

I've been using tubes for years albeit w/o screens. I'm trying to understand how you're getting screen marks on your film. Is the emulsion facing the screen ? This is the only thing I can think of that would cause this.

I use Simma drums on a roller base and the emulsion faces in, no screens and never a problem with processing. Antihalation always clears but I do presoak.

When I went to abs tubes for multiple 8x10 sheets, I carefully wet sanded EVERYTHING with maybe 600x paper. Inside down the length of the tube and along the rim. Only issues I've had were when I didn't load the sheets carefully and had overlap.

I'd love to try dbi some day but daylight processing sheets is rather nice. Good luck !

mtnjunkie · Oct 23, 2006

I too have sometimes had trouble with the checkerboarding from the fiberglass mesh, and find that a presoak does help. The checks do still show up on occasion.

Donald,
Are you presoaking your film in the tubes? I have been mostly presoaking the film in a tray and presoaking the film and mesh separately, thinking that the dry film touching the mesh was interfering with the presoak.

On the bright side, timeunit, only the very worst grid patterns have ever shown up on a print...

Thanks,

Mike

Mark Pope · Oct 23, 2006

I started with Paterson orbital processors. They were an unmitigated disaster. So I invested in a combiplan and get on fine with it. Yes it does leak a bit, but I wear gloves when I develop films anyway.
No problems with scratches or uneven development using HP5 plus and Perceptol. I don't understand how the holder or the retaining clip can scratch film.

Regards

jstraw · Oct 23, 2006

I love my combi-plans but for the life of me can't figure out how the teeth on the clip would make any contact with the emulsion.

vet173 · Oct 23, 2006

If your planing on using the combi plan for semi stand, you will be using higher dilutions. Check the capacity of the developer working solution. You may or may not be able to do a full load.

KenM · Oct 23, 2006

While it may have already been mentioned (I didn't read each reply), you should try tanks and hangers - yes, you use a lot of solution, but you can be more efficient if you batch up your film. With the tanks I use, I use 1700ml of solution. I can run through three batches of 6 with the same stock solution. Due to the amount of solution, temperature stays quite constant without any requirement for water jacketing...

Using hangers also gives you the ability to develop each sheet differently, something a Jobo won't let you do.

I initially started off developing in trays, but after scratching almost every negative, I made my own set of tubes. They worked quite well, and I still use them on occasion, but I dropped them for my general processing in favour of T&H since the constant spinning of the tubes was making my wrists sore....

resummerfield · Oct 23, 2006

I use hangers, too. I've tried trays, Jobo, and BTZS tubes, and while they all work, I just like hangers better. I have not tried the slosher, but I hope to build one this year.

My suggestion would be to try all these suggestions, and then use the one method that fits your style best.

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 23, 2006

My Summitek and PF Sloshers work fine (4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 Sheet Film). I use them with Minimal Agitation and Semi-Stand Agitation. No problems at all. I develop with Pyrocat-HD and Pyrocat-MC. I use sufficient developer to keep the film covered (about 1 liter for 8x10).

4x5 developing, close to giving up...

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