3D printed negative carriers?

[Donald Qualls]

I'm going to be looking, soon, for a 6x7 negative carrier for my D2 enlargers. Likely also 9x12, 6x4.5, one or more for 127 (three formats, I've got cameras for all of them) and 828 (35mm film width, but 28x40 image offset to one side of the film -- same as 126 only rectangular and a 126 carrier could be easily modified), and half-frame (18x24mm), in addition to the standard ones I have for 4x5, 6x9, 6x6, and 35mm. I have an Enlahead for my Minolta 16 negatives, once it turns up, but the lens quality isn't terrific, so I might be interested in Minolta/Kiev 16 carriers as well (not to mention a recessed lens board to mount a 28-35 mm lens).

Obviously, that's looking like a long hunt and some money to buy all of those (especially the 9x12, 828, and 16mm, I'm not sure the latter pair were ever made for a D series machine, though both formats were still in production during much of the model family's run).

For limited printer sizes, 3D printing might be an answer: due to limited print dimensions of less costly printers, this might be done as an insert for a carrier with a larger mask opening, like 828 in a 6x6 or 6x7 in 4x5 -- and might still be, as a filament economy measure. This design measure would also mean the same carrier file could be used in multiple enlargers, since the 4x5 mask in an Omega is pretty much the same as the one in, say, a Beseler or Durst glassless carrier. I think there's a library around that has a 3D printer, so I could download files to print during a visit there (assuming they'll issue me a card; I'm not a resident of that county). What I see as the main issue is heat -- PLA isn't terribly heat resistant, and ABS softens as well (and costs extra, if the library printers can even print with it).

I'm considering buying a printer anyway, but the economy models print only in PLA (which means, really, they need an extra cost modification to the heater and/or nozzle to use ABS or other filament).

Bottom question: has anyone here used a 3D printed negative carrier in a hot-light, condenser enlarger, and if so, how did it work out for you?

 

[radiant]

I have had a need to get some negative carriers for my Fujimoto enlarger.

I have never considered making a 3D printed one for few reasons: PLA isn't hard enough in such thin thicknesses, the 3D printed surface can scratch emulsions and of course the heat. PLA for example starts to change it's shape in 50-60 degrees temperatures. It is not melting but everything that has force on it will probably change the shape.

I've also considered making a wooden one (from laminated plywood) but not progressed with that..

 

[ic-racer]

Have you considered a 4x5" glass carrier with two pieces of glass and some 3d printed masks? Or better yet, the Omega Masking attachment (that might fit your enlarger?).

Pretty much all of my enlargers are set up that way. That is, a large glass carrier with two pieces of glass and built-in blades or overlay masks for the smaller formats. These masks (like the Durst in the middle) don't hold the negative, they just block light. The negative in all these carriers is always between two pieces of glass.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I think I've heard of the Omega masking carrier -- and yes, I believe there's a version that fits the D series. They're pretty spendy, though (if you can even find one). Minimum 5x5 ANR glass, on the bottom, probably Schott optical plate glass for the upper. Also, no guides, so moving the film to the correct image, if it's not in the middle of the strip where you can grab both ends, becomes a chore. But yes, glass and tape are the lowest common denominator, and anti-glare picture frame glass is MUCH cheaper than ANR etched (though significantly less durable) if I'm going to build one myself.

And apparently there is someone selling Omega D series 3D printed negative carriers in pretty much every reasonable size upward from 18x24 (half frame) -- choice of standard, bordered, or full frame (not sure what "bordered" means in this context) as well as white or black for the upper plate. Appear to be pin guide/register, too. Might be something mainly useful with cold light heads, or maybe there isn't that much heat that gets past the condensers (or maybe the user is expected to have heat-blocking glass somewhere in the stack). White upper costs an extra $10 a pop, smaller mask size is more (because more filament and machin time, I'd guess), the smaller masks with white upper are more than a common size aluminum set. I bet if I had a printer big enough I could print them for $5 worth of filament, though, presuming I can find the file.

 

[Jerevan]

Printing in 3D, I am not sure how temperature would affect it or how they hold up for the long-term (dimensional stability). Metal or glass would be my choice. Maybe Reinhold could make something for you? -> http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Dodger,_Carrier.html

As for the Fujimoto carriers that @vedostuu mentions, the ones I have seen were about as unfancy as one can get - thin metal bent to shape, with some foam. I was surprised by its simplicity, given that the G70 itself felt more high-tech. Japanexposures have new carriers for the VR70, perhaps they fit some older models.

 

[radiant]

As for the Fujimoto carriers that @vedostuu mentions, the ones I have seen were about as unfancy as one can get - thin metal bent to shape, with some foam. I was surprised by its simplicity, given that the G70 itself felt more high-tech. Japanexposures have new carriers for the VR70, perhaps they fit some older models.

My holders are Fujimoto original holders and those are really sturdy and there is no foam involved. Plain thick metal with really smooth surfaces. I guess those you have seen were some cheaper versions?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Maybe Reinhold could make something for you? -> http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Dodger,_Carrier.html

I've stashed that link, but most of what I'm after is/was a standard size, just not a very common one (in the USA) for a full size enlarger (126/828, for instance, isn't something you'd usually have wanted to print if you were in a position to have a D2, never mind 16mm -- but my Bantam RF makes some nice negatives when I cut film to feed it).

 

[gijsbert]

Printing in 3D, I am not sure how temperature would affect it or how they hold up for the long-term (dimensional stability). Metal or glass would be my choice. Maybe Reinhold could make something for you? -> http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Dodger,_Carrier.html

As for the Fujimoto carriers that @vedostuu mentions, the ones I have seen were about as unfancy as one can get - thin metal bent to shape, with some foam. I was surprised by its simplicity, given that the G70 itself felt more high-tech. Japanexposures have new carriers for the VR70, perhaps they fit some older models.

Bummer, no VR70 carriers in stock at all. I have a G70 but I put it in storage since it didn't come with any carrier, and not many show up on ebay.

 

[Jerevan]

@vedostuu - I may have been looking at some sort of copy, perhaps they were made by Lucky - but the ones i used in our community lab were a bit flimsy, a bit odd given the rest of the G70.

@Donald Qualls - I just happened to remember that Reinhold did stuff for the Omegas - never even seen one in real life, living on the other side of the pond.

@gijsbert - too bad that there was nothing there ... hope you'll have better luck on the 'Bay (or elsewhere) soon. Having stuff in storage is no fun.

 

[GRHazelton]

I wonder whether the film in the carrier would be more likely to fail under heat than a 3 D printed carrier or insert?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Donald, I think I may have a 126 size laying around here I will never use. What size is that? I think I might have a rapid shift half frame too. Maybe some others. I'd have to look.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I wonder whether the film in the carrier would be more likely to fail under heat than a 3 D printed carrier or insert?

PLA isn't particularly heat resistant. The other common plastic used in 3D printing is ABS, same stuff drain pipe is made from. It holds up a little better to heat than PLA (which means it needs a hotter nozzle to print, which is why the cheaper printers can't use ABS filament). I can't say I'm sure why polyethylene and nylon aren't used (nylon comes in many varieties, some are heat resistant enough to make pancake turners, others soften under a hair drier), but it probably boils down to money.

I'm inclined to think an acetate film base would hold up at least as well as PLA -- it's been used for decades in projectors of one sort or another. Mylar/polyester is (IIRC) more heat resistant than acetate. So, generally, I'd expect a negative to hold up to heat at least as well as a PLA carrier, probably about as well as an ABS one.

Donald, I think I may have a 126 size laying around here I will never use. What size is that? I think I might have a rapid shift half frame too. Maybe some others. I'd have to look.

126 is 28x28 mm offset to 2mm from one edge (so 5mm on the other) on 35mm wide film. The offset is so the finger that detects the one perf per frame and stops the advance won't leave a scratch in the image area. 828 is the same offset, same reason, but 28x40, so pretty easy to convert 126 to 828.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing about any Omega D size carriers for formats I mentioned needing that might be available (9x12, 6x7, 6x4.5; 3x4, 4x4, and 4x6 on 127; 828 or 126, half frame 18x24 on 35mm). I have a couple items I could offer in trade. It seems pretty obvious that the original type aluminum carriers would be more durable than 3D printed plastic...