35mm Tmax 100 bulk rolls are getting pricey

Lachlan Young said:

To all those above who rather arrogantly assume to be all-knowing about the market and better at the job than Alaris' management, how about considering this: maybe, just maybe, people aren't buying bulk rolls any more.

Stepping outside of your mentalité/ doctrine might be enlightening. Most people have better things to do with their lives than bulk loading film.

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If what you said were true, then Ilford pricing would mirror Kodak's. Since it does not, one can easily assume that Ilford is successfully selling more bulk film than Kodak. Ilford has shown in the past to be far more responsive to the film customer than Kodak and this bulk pricing of Kodak is just another example of how mismanaged a company it is.

there are significantly more manual operations involved in assembling bulk

I see....I see ...AND Kodak is not able to
pay additional personal to solve this problem???

There are no resources of man power to
acceptable prices in the US......I understand this quite clear?
AFTER KODAK FIRED 10.000th ?
Perhaps it is time to some Kodak Alaris management officials now to spend the
next 27 week-ends AND their whole holidays in produktion as "helping hands" in the confection of bulk rolls because we have a efficiency problem due to personal costs AND price calculaton.
May be it will help to transfer some guys
from manuel operator in other division while this time.
Better they went first in holydays - comming back recovered they first knocking on dors is to marketing departement to check miserablest calculations.

It is time to solve such kind of problems
imediately.
If they are not willing to spent time personaly in production I will come to the US while my holidays to help in confection of bulk rolls.
You are allowed to telling them when you are at phone next time with Kodak Alaris
officials Lachian Young.

Incredible to imagine - we have won cold war but Kodak is not able to produce bw in bulk rolls under $ 100,-
....incredible....incredible......

with regards

Right from day one, when it emerged from receivership, Harman touted the fact that one of its biggest assets was that its production capacity was much smaller and more flexible than the other remaining participants in the analogue photographic market.
When it comes to competing with the other high quality sources, their flexibility is their biggest asset.
Eastman Kodak's production capacity may be an asset as well - for products that still sell in volume.
As I understand it, a significant amount of the Harman coating production capacity is taken up with contract coating of non-photographic products. And I believe that Eastman Kodak is also actively pursuing that sort of business as well. It may be that a busier Building 38 in Rochester will result in some cost benefits to Kodak Alaris. Or maybe it will get worse. The only thing we can do is make the decision to buy product which we want to use.
I have no problem spending $11.00 more for a Kodak bulk roll than an Ilford one, because I have both objective and subjective reasons to prefer the product. I won't spend $50.00 more, despite my preferences for the product. The pricing realities of the market will most likely determine what products are available in the market.

MattKing said:

Manual labour vs. automation.
Different edge printing.
Different core.
Different can.
Different label.
Different box.
Different SKU, and all the distribution costs associated with that.
Most likely setup and take-down charges levied by Eastman Kodak to any of its contract coating and confectioning customers, including Kodak Alaris. These might very well be several thousands of dollars each time.
If volumes were higher, the per roll cost of bulk film would be lower. It is a Catch 22 situation.
There probably needs to be something like a special promotion - once a year, special for the education market, organized by the big retailers.
Something like the educational packaging that Ilford offers for 100 sheet boxes of 8x10 RC paper.

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Yes. ....you are right, but these guys in
achivement are paid very proper to do their jobs.

So hurry up Kodak Alaris managers. ..
It is time to solve such kind of problems.
We must not worry about finding solutions - they are paid for.
But I agree it is indeed a catch22 : The
comander in chief is not to speak when he is inside the basis. Is he is outside the
basis he is to speak - yes indeed but than he is not here.......?

with regards

trendland said:

Perhaps it is time to some Kodak Alaris management officials now to spend the
next 27 week-ends AND their whole holidays in produktion as "helping hands" in the confection of bulk rolls

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When it comes to film, Kodak Alaris have no production facilities of their own. They can only buy it from Eastman Kodak.
It is probable that their license to buy still film from Eastman Kodak is an exclusive one - we don't know that for sure. If it is, Eastman Kodak is not allowed to sell it to anyone else, and Kodak Alaris might be prohibited from buying from someone else.
It also may be that they could buy it by the master roll, and have someone else slit, edge print, perforate and package it for them. We don't know whether their license would permit that either, nor do we know whether that would result in sufficient savings to make it worthwhile. In particular, we don't know whether the sales of bulk rolls are large enough for that to make sense in the first place - if one master roll would result in 20 years worth of bulk roll film, it would clearly not make sense.

RattyMouse said:

If what you said were true, then Ilford pricing would mirror Kodak's. Since it does not, one can easily assume that Ilford is successfully selling more bulk film than Kodak. Ilford has shown in the past to be far more responsive to the film customer than Kodak and this bulk pricing of Kodak is just another example of how mismanaged a company it is.

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Indeed RattyMouse just notice the problems of Ilford in the past due to
efficiency problems in manufacturing bw films.
3 times in the past it was short before that Ilford went direct into bunkruptcy.
They FIRED also many people.Then began with new structures again and
again AND they Do their Job.
Prices increases very much - looking to bulk prices in 2005 !!!!!!

But at the end they make profit as a basis of business plans.

AND - I saw this with great comliments to Ilford - No Films are discontinued due
to less demand.

with regards

PS : Perhaps some companies should state in the possible future :
Discontinued films due to catastrophic error management....-

MattKing said:

When it comes to film, Kodak Alaris have no production facilities of their own. They can only buy it from Eastman Kodak.
It is probable that their license to buy still film from Eastman Kodak is an exclusive one - we don't know that for sure. If it is, Eastman Kodak is not allowed to sell it to anyone else, and Kodak Alaris might be prohibited from buying from someone else.
It also may be that they could buy it by the master roll, and have someone else slit, edge print, perforate and package it for them. We don't know whether their license would permit that either, nor do we know whether that would result in sufficient savings to make it worthwhile. In particular, we don't know whether the sales of bulk rolls are large enough for that to make sense in the first place - if one master roll would result in 20 years worth of bulk roll film, it would clearly not make sense.

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Yes sorry Matt the bad guys are still sitting in their chairs in rochester.
Kodak Alaris are the good guys - without
them we would not have a simple discussion about Kodak Films any more !

I am mixing it up sometimes - but sometimes they are the same people :
First Eastman Kodak Supervision - after a
change new position at Kodak Alaris.

The players may have changed - but the
game AND the rules are the same.

with regards

MattKing said:

When it comes to film, Kodak Alaris have no production facilities of their own. They can only buy it from Eastman Kodak.
It is probable that their license to buy still film from Eastman Kodak is an exclusive one - we don't know that for sure. If it is, Eastman Kodak is not allowed to sell it to anyone else, and Kodak Alaris might be prohibited from buying from someone else.
It also may be that they could buy it by the master roll, and have someone else slit, edge print, perforate and package it for them. We don't know whether their license would permit that either, nor do we know whether that would result in sufficient savings to make it worthwhile. In particular, we don't know whether the sales of bulk rolls are large enough for that to make sense in the first place - if one master roll would result in 20 years worth of bulk roll film, it would clearly not make sense.

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By the time "20 years old masterrols" (to make 20 years selling bulk rolls from one
masterrol)

I am quite sure that last selling Kodak EPN (remenber 1) EPN 2) EPP 3) KODAK Panther (50,100 ASA) 4) Ektachrome SW,S, 5) Ektachrome 100G,
VS .).....So I am quite sure the last EPN sold 2005 was backed original 1992
AND Kodak calculated to sell this emulsion 15 years ( from more than 1
masterrol)

with regards

MattKing said:

Right from day one, when it emerged from receivership, Harman touted the fact that one of its biggest assets was that its production capacity was much smaller and more flexible than the other remaining participants in the analogue photographic market.
When it comes to competing with the other high quality sources, their flexibility is their biggest asset.
Eastman Kodak's production capacity may be an asset as well - for products that still sell in volume.
As I understand it, a significant amount of the Harman coating production capacity is taken up with contract coating of non-photographic products. And I believe that Eastman Kodak is also actively pursuing that sort of business as well. It may be that a busier Building 38 in Rochester will result in some cost benefits to Kodak Alaris. Or maybe it will get worse. The only thing we can do is make the decision to buy product which we want to use.
I have no problem spending $11.00 more for a Kodak bulk roll than an Ilford one, because I have both objective and subjective reasons to prefer the product. I won't spend $50.00 more, despite my preferences for the product. The pricing realities of the market will most likely determine what products are available in the market.

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I'm with you Matt! 10% more maybe, but that's about it for me. I actually would feel better if Kodak A just ceased manufacturing bulk altogether instead of them trying to make us think we are less smart than we really are. If you get my drift.

400 ft of double x is £240 in uk - a still very considerable sum of money but its an alternative

Lachlan Young said:

To all those above who rather arrogantly assume to be all-knowing about the market and better at the job than Alaris' management, how about considering this: maybe, just maybe, people aren't buying bulk rolls any more.

Stepping outside of your mentalité/ doctrine might be enlightening. Most people have better things to do with their lives than bulk loading film.

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This is why I have 20 bulk rolls in my fridge. Not because I save money but because "nobody buys it anymore", yes?

NB23 said:

This is why I have 20 bulk rolls in my fridge. Not because I save money but because "nobody buys it anymore", yes?

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I which I had 10 of TMY2, but oh well!

trendland said:

Matt - exact this type of arogance from Kodak I noticed many years before in a proffessional store.
The first time (and last time) I informed me about bulk rolls of C-41 AND E6 !
First I wondered about, because I never know before that this is also avaible.
But the dealer had it in his scedule.
100ft in Kodak Ektachrome 64 EPR.
And the price was much much over
20 single 135-36 due to less demand.
What the hell is so expensive to manufacturers to cut some ft of original master rolls and put it in a plastic container instead of confection in 20 single metal cans 135 ?
But the bulk rolls were avaible to that time.I tought to less demand on highest prices. BUT THERE SHOULD BE A DEMAND. Otherwise it should discontinued. (In case of 100% No Demand)
Now my question : Who bought bulk rolls
EPR much higher priced in (2002 ? ) ....
I can only imagine proffessionals......
For what reason ? 250 long Film magazines?
Perhaps some had multiple shots with
5 different emulsions paralel?
Let's better say a time before (1997) and
they realized not to waste an entire 135-36 roll to 15 shots.
Because you are also able with self confection to produce 60 x 135-12 cans.
EPR was never avaible in this size.
But proffessionals most used 120 film
to that time (1990 - 1998).

with regards

PS : To have an oasis in a desert and the only licence to sell water - that should be the most reason to higher prices with bulk rolls - or as I stated before - they are in a process to get short with films.

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Many years ago, I noticed that when Kodak raised its bulk roll prices, so did Ansco, and so did Agfa ... it must have been a world wide conspiracy with all the film makers becoming arrogant, but absolutely nothing to do with rising costs and dropping demand. I bet that they sat around back then smoking cigars talking about how they could get you pissed off in the worst way. I never realized that the price rises were only about you the whole time.

Saying that the management is sheet doesn't mean that the products are sheet. But this reality seems very hard to grasp for some folks.

I just saw Freestyle has TMAX 400 in 120 for $4.94 a roll after 10% rebate. that's cheaper than their HP5+ at $4.99 a roll. I can live with pricing like that and will be ordering some because I love that film, but like I said earlier, "I'm not in love with Kodak, just their products".

John Wiegerink said:

I just saw Freestyle has TMAX 400 in 120 for $4.94 a roll after 10% rebate. that's cheaper than their HP5+ at $4.99 a roll. I can live with pricing like that and will be ordering some because I love that film, but like I said earlier, "I'm not in love with Kodak, just their products".

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That ist quite correct in some ways Kodak Films are often of the best in comparison to others (but not allways).

Now we have to say : "Thank you very much to give us emulsions never seen
before in such a kind of superior quality."

But I am asking myself : How do I thank for this ?

1 ) Kodak specialists who worked in an excellent way in deparments for research - they created this kind of emulsions after expansive scientific tests.Most of them are from a generation before the last of them were affronted from Kodaks anouncement in 2002 to spend no more money in film research.
I don't know what happend to this people when they were told : Your job is
finnished just now - many thank to you.
Perhaps we can ask PE. aboud, he may know hat happened - but better ask PE not about
because he don't whant to remember to this like some others we also know here from Apug who were involved.
I can't say what is the best way - I can personaly only say : Many many thanks for this grand work (with phantastic results)

2) All other members of stuff (Kodak had
lots of them) they mostly lost their job after decades of within they have done their job very well.

3) A group of people we often forget -
most Kodak films were sold to unexperienced people. Most of them were unable to load their 135 films once a time every year when they went on holidays.Remember these people bougt
85% of all Kodak films.
(This group was parallel the big problem wenn they changed to 1,5 Megapixel digital)
4) All professionals who still worked with film after 1998. Other who changed before may had strikt reasons to do so.
(Remember : Professionals bought only
4-6% of all sold Kodak films)
The costs of professional films were subcidised from Grandma Smith and
Unkle Bill during holidays - and from Apug members buying proffessional films in much more amounds than proffessionals themselves in the past.

But no thanks to Kodak Management - sorry they didn't noticed digital revolution while they waste millions of $
in their last nonsence project : APS .
As I stated before some of this guys are
still sitting in their chairs (most of them not of cause) but to some it wasn't a problem at all......?
And as Lachian Young stated :
YES I AM INDEED BELIEVING - they are just smoking cigars ! They are not familiar with their own job.
Hope next generation will do it better.

with regards

PS : Prizing films is not a job to experts -
it is a job to ask the simple man on the street. Kodak founders realy knew about.

Ähhmm sorry Sirius Glass - It was you who stated doupts to "smoking cigars management " I just mixed it up because
your avatar looks like the avatar of some
others.
BUT YES I AM STILL BELIEVING !

with regards

Sirius Glass said:

Many years ago, I noticed that when Kodak raised its bulk roll prices, so did Ansco, and so did Agfa ... it must have been a world wide conspiracy with all the film makers becoming arrogant, but absolutely nothing to do with rising costs and dropping demand. I bet that they sat around back then smoking cigars talking about how they could get you pissed off in the worst way. I never realized that the price rises were only about you the whole time.

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Yes I can say there are many reasons to
think so - looking to these days there may be a world wide conspiracy.
But it is more like an epedemic of incompetancy and ingnorance ..

And we all may hope that this virus
EASTMAN KODAK Management were atacked from in the past - will not
infect Kodak Alaris very very soon?

Just looking to Ilford in the UK !

They have highly effective antigen formulars against it.

Obviously they are not infected I would say.........

with regards

Ilford Delta 100 is very cheap in comparison to tmax 100 because it is a
(very little) better emulsion to me and
may be some others.
What will hallen with Tmax100 in the future Kodak will tell us very soon?
I hope so but as I stated the hope is not so great as possible because .....
they ....are ..smoking. ..ci.....

Sorry Smartphone is on strike :

.....what will happen with Tmax100.....

with regards

Craig75 said:

400 ft of double x is £240 in uk

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Can you please share a link? I would like to buy some Double-X, but found it only from USA buyers. For custom and import reasons - I would like to buy it in EU.
Thanks.

darkosaric said:

Can you please share a link? I would like to buy some Double-X, but found it only from USA buyers. For custom and import reasons - I would like to buy it in EU.
Thanks.

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http://www.frame24ltd.co.uk/epages/...ps/es768558/Products/KS4FB&WN16MMK400fresh[4]

Vat / sales tax is 20 percent here in uk so it should be 240 with tax.

Craig75 said:

http://www.frame24ltd.co.uk/epages/...ps/es768558/Products/KS4FB&WN16MMK400fresh[4]

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Thanks. Only little thing is suspicious to me: on this link for selling 5222 they have picture of 7222 - which is 16mm film.

darkosaric said:

Thanks. Only little thing is suspicious to me: on this link for selling 5222 they have picture of 7222 - which is 16mm film.

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I think they just have wrong image on their website. They are an official kodak dealer in UK so they are proper operation with fresh stock. 400ft of 16mm is a lot less than that on their site and ebay account. Im sure they would appreciate being told they have wrong image up.

Their ebay account is http://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?sid=frame24ltd&isRefine=true&_pgn=1 but they dont have everything on there that they have on their website.

Craig75 said:

Im sure they would appreciate being told they have wrong image up.

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Thanks. I did wrote an email to them with a question .

darkosaric said:

Thanks. Only little thing is suspicious to me: on this link for selling 5222 they have picture of 7222 - which is 16mm film.

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Thats no reasons to worry about darkosaric.
Frame24 in the UK is an absolut proffessional Kodak Cinefilm retailer but
they are not so proffessional to manage
their homepage.
They are often not up to date with their site so one have to look twice to find the right stuff.
Also their pictures are sometimes wrong
but their films a handled with absolut care and with realistc prices.

with regards