35mm SLR Rip Off Time

alexmacphee · Oct 12, 2009

I find it hard to discern patterns in pricings. I have a dealer near me, a family-owned business, where the prices tend to be on the high side,though in the main one can understand them given the shop's location and overheads. The staff are generally photographers themselves and very knowledgeable, but occasionally I see stuff I know (and often have) priced ludicrously beyond their market values. They have a Yashica zoom on sale for GBP 80 that I found on eBay for GBP 15, and there's a good reason why the GBP 80 lens has been sitting there for over three years. Although eBay can vary wildly too, it's still a good indicator of market values, because buyers are not in the main interested in the seller's overheads, they're interested in what they have to shell out.

One eBay seller has been trying to sell an M42-screw long zoom lens for GBP 90 on fixed price. It's was on for four unbid listings in a row. He then changed it to at GBP 50 start with GBP 90 BIN, and after two listings it was still unbought. It's now unlisted, the last listing unsuccessful. I bought the same lens a year earlier for GBP 5. I guess he's holding out for that elusive buyer with lots of cash who really does believe the words "rare" and "amazing" in an eBay listing.

Some things are definitely going skyward, though. The Flektogons I have (20mm and 35mm) are now routinely going for three to five times what I paid for them a mere three years ago.

Brac · Oct 13, 2009

Out of curiosity I went to a camera fayre (that's the way they spell it) in the south of England on Sunday. There were over a dozen tables and most, if not all, seemed to be run by camera dealers. I recognised some names from a photographic magazine. I had hoped there might be some bargains but I didn't see any. There were a vast quantity of cameras, mainly film, and of all possible types, ages and condition. The ones that appeared to be in good condition seemed in general to be over-priced. There were also some rubbishy items which would have been better put in a recycling bin.

The one camera that really interested me was a MPP Microcord TLR, which was well over 50 years old. Its cosmetic condition was excellent and in fact the best I had ever seen. The dealer was prepared to reduce it from £89 to £79, which seemed quite reasonable. Unfortunately try as I might I couldn't get anything into sharp focus. Thinking it was me, I asked the friend accompanying me to have a go but he couldn't get it into focus either. So I left it, as the cost of a repair (assuming it was possible) would be higher than the camera's cost. During the time I was there I saw an awful lot of viewing but next to no-one buying. Next time I've got a few hours to spare I'll go round a few charity shops rather than a camera fayre.

Meanwhile on ebay a few months ago I bought an excellent Pentax SF7 body for £5.

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 13, 2009

Just out of interest, isn't the word 'fayre' Gaelic (to the English Fair)?
But the novelty of the word does not necessarily appear confined to England; I've seen it twice recently here in country Victoria!

Q.G. · Oct 13, 2009

It's Ye Olde English, though from a Romance root.

Rip-offs take two parties: the ripper off, and the rippee.
Just don't let yourself be ripped off, and the ripping off ends.

alexmacphee · Oct 14, 2009

Poisson Du Jour said:
Just out of interest, isn't the word 'fayre' Gaelic (to the English Fair)?

It's just an archaic and almost invariably affectatious spelling of 'fair'. It's the same word. Standardised spelling is a relatively modern invention.

Incidentally, 'ye' as in 'Ye Olde Tea Shoppe' was never a word in mediaeval English. It is an error from Victorian times, a confusion of the old English letter called 'thorn', which looked like a 'p' with a longer ascender stroke, and which has now disappeared from the English alphabet. It was pronounced 'th'. 'Thorn' was written by drawing first the downstroke, then coming up to draw the bowl, finishing by touching the ascender again. Done in this way, it does look a little like a capital 'Y' that has been slightly closed at the top. I think it was lost following the Norman Conquest, the French never having been able to pronounce the 'th' sound.

The early English writing habit was to write words like 'the' and 'then' in an abbreviated form, writing first the letter 'thorn' followed by the 'e' or 'n' as a superscript above and to the right. So 'the' looked to the unfamiliar as 'Ye' and 'that' likewise was drawn to resemble 'Yt' and 'then' was drawn to resemble 'Yn', in each case with the second letter up in the air.

However, 'Ye' is most definitely 'the', just as 'Yt' is most definitely 'that'. So whenever you see a sign like 'Ye Olde Tea Shoppe', you know that 'Olde' is the last thing it is.

(You know, you can wait decades for an occasion to bring up examples of this kind of accumulated trivia.)

Poisson Du Jour · Oct 14, 2009

Very interesting. Even if it is off-topic.
It's very, very interesting.

Steve Smith · Oct 14, 2009

alexmacphee said:
Incidentally, 'ye' as in 'Ye Olde Tea Shoppe' was never a word in mediaeval English. It is an error from Victorian times, a confusion of the old English letter called 'thorn', which looked like a 'p' with a longer ascender stroke

You can type the thorn character too. Alt. 0222 = Þ and Alt. 0254 = þ.

alexmacphee said:
However, 'Ye' is most definitely 'the', just as 'Yt' is most definitely 'that'. So whenever you see a sign like 'Ye Olde Tea Shoppe', you know that 'Olde' is the last thing it is.

Now known as Ye Olde Internete Café.

Steve.

Q.G. · Oct 14, 2009

Steve Smith said:
You can type the thorn character too. Alt. 0222 = Þ and Alt. 0254 = þ.

It is still heavily used in Ye Olde Iceland.

Steve Smith · Oct 14, 2009

Q.G. said:
It is still heavily used in Ye Olde Iceland.

The country or the shop*? (may only make sense to UK residents!)..

* or shoppe

Steve.

Q.G. · Oct 14, 2009

Ye Olde Iceland should answer your question.

alexmacphee · Oct 14, 2009

Steve Smith said:
You can type the thorn character too. Alt. 0222 = Þ and Alt. 0254 = þ.

Þou hast it on þe nail!

cooltouch · Oct 15, 2009

Hehe -- Alex, as a linguist with an expressed academic interest in the English language (BA and MA from Cal State Fullerton, California), I enjoyed your synopsis very much. True, your explanation was "old news" to me, but entertaining reading nonetheless. Personally, I don't really understand why the thorn -- þ -- and the eth -- ð -- (pronounced with the voiced, or hard, 'th' as in "the") ever departed from the English writing system. They are more compact, requiring only a single letter to represent the sound. As an American, I often envy citizens of the UK for being so much closer to the origins of my mother tongue, and typically so much more familiar with these origins, and clearly better users of the language as well.

And to put it succinctly, "fayre" is way too easily pronounceable to be Gaelic.

Steve Smith · Oct 16, 2009

cooltouch said:
as a linguist with an expressed academic interest in the English language (BA and MA from Cal State Fullerton, California), I enjoyed your synopsis very much.

Just remembered this Homer Simpson line: English -- Who needs that? I'm never going to England!

Steve.

PeteZ8 · Oct 16, 2009

I stopped in a flea market a while back, there is a guy there who sells old cameras/lenses/binoculars etc. I asked him if he had any Nikon TC-14B teleconverters. These go for $80-125 on the auction site. He had NEVER HEARD of one before, but as soon as I mentioned they were "old" and for "big lenses" he swore there would be no way I would find one for under $350.

I told him these go for $150 tops, in mint condition on Ebay, usually less. His reply? Ebay doesn't set values. No, it doesn't, but the market does, and when the market won't pay more than $150 for a MINT copy, that's what it's worth. A few hundred million potential customers cannot be wrong I guess.

He told me "Good luck, you'll never find one for that price". (there were 3 on Ebay at the time for that price range).

Dude has been there 20 years so I guess he has no problem finding suckers though.

cooltouch · Oct 16, 2009

By definition, auctions set market prices for goods. The auctioneer might not, but the bidders do, thus auctions set market prices. And since eBay is an auction establishment, the prices that items sell for there, by definition, reflect market values. Some people are incapable of not only education, but reason.

Adrian Twiss · Oct 16, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
The FM3a cameras go for about £350-£400 at Ffordes.

Tom

FFordes are not cheap but I have only had good experiences from them. I bought a Bronica SQB 50,65,150,250 lenses 4 backs, prism and polaroid film holder all for £1400. Everything was in excellent condition.

With regard to 35mm I am still seeing Canon F1n's going for between £200-£300 on ebay but T90s are dirt cheap.

alexmacphee · Oct 16, 2009

PeteZ8 said:
His reply? Ebay doesn't set values. No, it doesn't, but the market does

Quite so. I've watched a seller I've dealt with before (perfectly good) try to sell a lens I happen to have, over the last three months or so, for a fixed price of GBP 95. I knew as soon as I saw it that it was hopelessly overpriced. As I recall he had it on fairly long term listing, and it never sold. Whenever the listing ended, he relisted it straight away. I lost count after six listings, at which point he changed it to an auction with a GBP 50 start and GBP 95 buy-it-now price. It never sold.

I got mine (it's a long-focus M42 mount zoom) for GBP 5 about two years earlier, and I was the only bidder.

That's the market's way of telling the price-setters that it isn't going to work like that.

Excalibur2 · Oct 21, 2009

****With regard to 35mm I am still seeing Canon F1n's going for between £200-£300 on ebay but T90s are dirt cheap.****

...and the T90 with matching speedlight 300TL is quite advanced.
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/canont90/Canon300tlflash/index.htm

John_Nikon_F · Oct 21, 2009

I usually prefer to buy stuff from a brick 'n mortar store. It may be more expensive, but you usually get a 2-week return period, and a 60 day warranty on the equipment. You also have a chance to actually look at the gear and make sure it works properly before you pay for it. A couple times I've been burned while buying stuff off eBay that was advertised as being in good working order, but that turned out to be junk. Locally, F-1 and F-1n bodies tend to go for $150-$200. The New F-1 is likely more, due to it being much newer.

So, I guess, YMMV.

-J

menos · Oct 23, 2009

Used Leica gear in China is insanely expensive.

The usual worn off M6 classic goes for more than 1000,- EUR, where in Europe it can be had for 700,- EUR already
You really don't want to buy a M7 or MP here.
Used Voigtlander lenses in China for Leica M go often for more than new price in the US !!!

When I bought my first Leica M lens, I was offered a completely wrecked Voigtlander 50mm Nokton for 650,- EUR - the barrel had dents and skuffs, it looked almost ancient, focus feel was sandy and the rangefinder coupling had some very strange burrs and nicks on it.

JBrunner · Oct 23, 2009

In my experience the tag price for used gear in many camera shops is merely the beginning price, the price they hope someone with deep pockets will pay without question. Most of the time if I have shown enough interest, and look and ask intelligent questions I get a reasonable deal quite a bit down from the asking price. Could I get a better deal on ebay etc.? Sure, but I'm buying sight unseen. Sometimes that has worked out, and sometimes not. In the end, for me, it comes out about even with the deals I have gotten at my local shop, with far fewer mysteries, worries, and unpleasant surprises.

cooltouch · Oct 23, 2009

JBrunner said:
In my experience the tag price for used gear in many camera shops is merely the beginning price, the price they hope someone with deep pockets will pay without question. Most of the time if I have shown enough interest, and look and ask intelligent questions I get a reasonable deal quite a bit down from the asking price.

This has been my experience as well. Just to add to this though, if I've spotted something I really want, I'll make sure to bring green stuff. No plastic. And I let them know up front that this will be a cash purchase. Then the haggling begins.

Last time I transacted with a local camera shop over some used gear they had that I wanted, we came to a deal that I found to be extremely favorable. And they were happy too. The prices I ended up paying for these items were way below what I could have typically expected to find them for on eBay on a good day. Sure, every once in a while I've fallen into some killer deals on eBay, but most of the time it feels like I'm bidding against the rest of the civilized world for an item I might want. So, yeah, being able to bargain with a local outfit is a really big plus in my book.

Minniesmum · Oct 23, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
The FM3a cameras go for about £350-£400 at Ffordes.

Tom

Theres a gold Konica Hexar on Ffordes site just now for....£999.99-yep a thousand pounds.Yikes.:rolleyes:

benjiboy · Oct 23, 2009

JBrunner said:
In my experience the tag price for used gear in many camera shops is merely the beginning price, the price they hope someone with deep pockets will pay without question. Most of the time if I have shown enough interest, and look and ask intelligent questions I get a reasonable deal quite a bit down from the asking price. Could I get a better deal on ebay etc.? Sure, but I'm buying sight unseen. Sometimes that has worked out, and sometimes not. In the end, for me, it comes out about even with the deals I have gotten at my local shop, with far fewer mysteries, worries, and unpleasant surprises.

I agree with Jason, after myself working for more than twenty years in photographic retailing, a price is just an invitation to make an offer, in fact the computerized tills we had in recent years after entering the product code for an item would tell the staff the ticket price and the minimum price it could be sold for to still make a profit, and with second hand equipment there was even more leeway , so my advice would be, do you're shopping on a wet Tuesday when business is slow, and make them an offer.

benjiboy · Oct 23, 2009

Minniesmum said:
Theres a gold Konica Hexar on Ffordes site just now for....£999.99-yep a thousand pounds.Yikes.:rolleyes:

Customer- what £999.99! I thought you sold goods at popular prices
Ffords- We like them

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