35mm not compatible with 8x10

planetrobert · Jun 3, 2012

Hello,

Wondering what sizes are popular when it comes to "inner" dimensions for a matt holding a 35mm or full frame digital image. 8x10 doesn't work with these files. To fit 8x10 they would need to be cut significantly.

10x15 is a large size that seems compatible, or maybe 6x9 ... Are there places where mats are sold specifically with inner dimensions that are compatible with these types of photos? Or do I have to suck it up and go to redimat.com or someplace similar and order a whole bunch of custom cut mats?

- R

pschwart · Jun 3, 2012

Cut your own mats. Problem solved. A cropped image doesn't always fit the arbitrary standard sizes. This also gives you the flexibility to position the opening where you want it. I *never* want it centered which is what you get with precut mats.

planetrobert · Jun 3, 2012

Somebody was trying to explain to me that Picasa has some sort of resizing tool that makes any image conform to 8x10 without distorting the image and I was thinking to myself, that has to be scientifically impossible. Either something is proportional to 8x10 or it is not. There's no way to fit a long rectangle into a shorter rectangle without somehow distorting the long rectangle.

Anyway, I don't have the tools to cut mats, nor do I have the skills. I think ordering custom cut mats online in bulk works out to about $4/mat for 16x20 frame sizes.

I just don't understand why 8x10 and similar are standard at places like Michael's when 35mm film gives rise to completely different photo dimensions.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 3, 2012

35mm film has an aspect ratio of 2:3, so look for mats with that ratio, like 6x9" or 10x15". If you can't find them and don't want to try doing it yourself (it's not hard and gives you the flexibility to crop the image however you like), you could ask a frame shop to cut them for you to a standard size. Once you've set up to do one at a certain size, it's not hard to do 25 or however many you need at the same size.

planetrobert · Jun 3, 2012

Thanks for the feedback. I have since learned about why 8x10 became popular due to its relationship to the original large format negative sizes. I think I will focus on either 6x9, 8x12, and 10x15 as destination sizes for my uncropped 35mm material.

pschwart · Jun 3, 2012

Precut mats will usually have an opening slightly smaller than the standard size to overlap the edges of the image. If you don't want anything cropped you might want to specify an opening size that includes a reveal.

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 4, 2012

Seriously investigate getting a GOOD mat cutter of your own. It will quickly pay for itself with the savings you'll realize over custom framing if you have to cut a lot of mats. Good mat cutters have production stops you can set to make it easy to make the same cut(s) over and over so that you can knock out dozens of windows in a very short time. By matting and framing my own work, the very first show I did where I had twelve prints up, the mat cutter paid for itself and then some with the savings over having it done professionally.

planetrobert · Jun 4, 2012

How much for a good one? And how hard is it to learn how to actually use it?

pschwart · Jun 4, 2012

A professional quality mat cutter costs $1500-$2000. You can cut perfect mats on an inexpensive mat cutter but it will be less convenient to use. You can get by with one of these for occasional use -- I used a cheap Logan (< $100) for years. This is a good way to learn what you need in a cutter for a minimal investment. Cutting mats is not rocket science -- careful measuring and using a fresh blade for each mat will get you most of the way there. Buy a couple of cheap conservation boards for practice before you start cutting expensive 100% rag stock

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 5, 2012

Logan makes a better grade mat cutter which is near-professional quality, the 650 (Framers' Edge Elite) which you can find new for $450-$550 depending on size. That is the one I have - it will cut up to 40" wide by whatever length boards, and can cut up to 1/4" foamcore or make bevel window cuts on up to 8-ply mat board (while the cutter is capable, the user is a different matter - even with a pro-grade mat cutter, it takes PRACTICE to cut a good 8-ply window mat). Look around for them on Ebay - I got mine in an inventory clearance sale for $350, but that was almost a decade ago. I would NOT buy a used Logan unless you know the seller and can test it out in person and verify that it is in alignment. A C&C or Fletcher (the heavy-duty pro cutters) I'd be willing to buy used because they are (supposedly) easier to return to true if they get out of alignment, and they're less likely to get out of alignment to start with.

Like Pschwart said, it's not rocket science. There are videos online about how to cut a window mat freehand and how to use mat cutters. The biggest thing is doing the calculation for the borders - I know I've more often than I care to admit done stupid math and decided I needed a 3 1/4" border when I really needed a 3 3/4" border and then bingo! you've got an unrecoverable over-cut. But that's from doing fractions math in my head instead of writing it down, and trying to do it when I'm in a rush.

planetrobert · Jun 5, 2012

Sorry, I spent $220 on twelve 16x20 frames, mats, and backboards. I'm not in the habit of making these purchases (last time was about three years ago), so it's still not economical for me to invest in this mat cutter system, but I think at some point if I can focus more on printing and exhibiting then it will be a helpful skill.

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 5, 2012

Where did you get that many that cheap? That's less than $20 a frame, for everything!

planetrobert · Jun 5, 2012

TheFlyingCamera said:
Where did you get that many that cheap? That's less than $20 a frame, for everything!

Redimat.com

They are fairly friendly over the phone, too, if you don't feel like scrutinizing their overwhelming number of options and prices online. I ordered from them a few years ago and was very happy with the mats. No free shipping but still better than store prices or even Amazon.

tkamiya · Jun 9, 2012

Hi....

I use Logan Artist Elite 450-1. It's good enough for my needs and learning to use it isn't that involved. I was cutting double mat on my second try - successfully!

I know you bought some already very inexpensively but do you know what kind of quality you got? Mat board goes anywhere from just plain paper to buffered paper to some in-between-stuff, and fully rag. Plain paper will change color (yellow) in matter of short years and could potentially damage your print. For occasional and non-critical use, it doesn't matter but if you are framing your finest, you might want to be careful.

As to standard, I tend to NOT care about standard. Some image calls for some odd dimensions and I'll just accept that and cut my mat accordingly. World around us simply doesn't always fit in 2:3 or whatever aspect ratio. 9x12 is a standard for modeling industry, too. (I do a lot of portraits)

planetrobert · Jun 10, 2012

tkamiya said:
Hi....

I know you bought some already very inexpensively but do you know what kind of quality you got? Mat board goes anywhere from just plain paper to buffered paper to some in-between-stuff, and fully rag. Plain paper will change color (yellow) in matter of short years and could potentially damage your print. For occasional and non-critical use, it doesn't matter but if you are framing your finest, you might want to be careful.

I ordered from their "Conservation" line of mats, which according to the description are 100% virgin alpha-cellulose, conservation-grade matboard.

It didn't actually say acid free but I think it is acid free. I did not order from their Museum Rag line. It was double the price.

tkamiya · Jun 10, 2012

It's a Cresent Select brand. I use exactly the same make/model also. It's a good one. May not be top of the line, but it's fully acid free and conservation grade. I wouldn't frame Mona Lisa with it though....

I use that one, and also Alpharag board. The difference is that later one is pure cotton. Appearance wise, former has a white core and latter has the same color all the way through. Sometimes, white core forming a border is desirable, sometimes not.

We can get so picky about these things..... I just wanted to bring up a point that least expensive ones can and do damage artwork.

planetrobert · Jun 10, 2012

tkamiya said:
I use that one, and also Alpharag board. The difference is that later one is pure cotton. Appearance wise, former has a white core and latter has the same color all the way through. Sometimes, white core forming a border is desirable, sometimes not.

Wait, which one has the same color (hopefully white) all the way through? Not the Crescent?? I hope I didn't order something with a different color core! I like one uniform, simple white all the way through.

tkamiya · Jun 10, 2012

Cresent SELECT has white cores. If you ordered white or off white front color, it doesn't matter. In more colorful selections, it does matter.

pschwart · Jun 10, 2012

I always request samples before buying mat board brands I haven't seen before. Even 100% rag museum board from different vendors can differ slightly in color and even surface texture. This is no big deal for individual prints, but it can be disconcerting if you are trying to match mounts for a print show or a contest.

tkamiya · Jun 11, 2012

It gets worse than that.... I just experienced a situation where same brand, same level, and same color.... two different batches.... DIFFERENT COLOR! I'm also amazed how many white there are and how much difference they actually make on how prints look.

I tried to be careful and consistent. I can't win all the time, I guess.

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 11, 2012

It's best if possible to order enough board to frame your entire show at one time, accounting for waste. That way you're not getting stuck with using three or four different dye lots of matboard that don't quite match, and of course it will not be obvious when you're assembling it at home but once they're up on the gallery wall, a minute difference will suddenly become hideously pronounced.

planetrobert · Jun 14, 2012

Update on the final cost for the shipment from Redimat ... I just received the boxes today and my credit card was charged $300. It was $211 plus $89 for shipping!!! You live you learn, I guess. They didn't have a shipping cost to quote me at time of sale so I should have known better.

tkamiya · Jun 14, 2012

Wow... that's a lot! How's the product? Are you satisfied with the merchandise itself?

pschwart · Jun 14, 2012

planetrobert said:
Update on the final cost for the shipment from Redimat ... I just received the boxes today and my credit card was charged $300. It was $211 plus $89 for shipping!!! You live you learn, I guess. They didn't have a shipping cost to quote me at time of sale so I should have known better.

Mat board is heavy, but a shipping charge of over 40% is serious gouging. If they won't credit you a decent amount, I'd return the stuff and take my business elsewhere.

planetrobert · Jun 14, 2012

OMG where's the glass????? Just opened everything up and there are no glass panes???!!!! The frames and mats and backing boards look fine, but no glass????

35mm not compatible with 8x10

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