35mm film that's akin to TXP

GraemeMitchell · May 12, 2006

Ideas of starting points for a 35mm film that is similar to txp in hc110? I'm trying to find something that I can visualize tonally in the same breath as when I shoot 4x5.

I looked at curve charts on Fuji and Kodak sites, which I'm not skilled at visualizing. And couldn't really see anything that behaves like it. To me Neopan 1600 looked like it might get me the closest to that umph, and I've like it a lot when I've shot it (at 640 pulled a stop), but I haven't shot more than 4 rolls of it so I was looking for pointers.

As usual thanks in advance, since everyone here is always helpful.

df cardwell · May 12, 2006

The 'oomph' is the combination of TXP's upswept curve, and the encouragement fro HX-110 to do the same. It's a time honored, classic 'portrait curve' that compresses or downplays the shadow contrast and gives emphasis on midtones and highlights. Classic.

You can use the same developer and use TMY to accomplish part of the trick. TMY is a long straigh line film, and with HC-110, or TMAx developer, you'll get the compressed midtones while the midtones are clean and smooth. The highlights won't be quite so bright, however. That can be a good thing, and you can easily dial in the brightness with printing or scanning.

A couple old time developers can do this trick easily: Edwal 12 ( mix from scratch, or get a kit from Formulary ) will give you virtually the same curve with TMY as you get from HC-110 and TXP. It may run a little hot, depending on your 'look'.

777, from BPI or Frugal Photographer, will give you exactly the same results as TXP and HC110. It's a combination that is a little off the beaten track... but, well.

If you want some more info, shoot me a PM.

don

Tom Duffy · May 12, 2006

Graeme,
If you find one, let me know. Tri-x for 35mm is very different from TXP 320. When shooting 35mm B&W I now shoot Fuji Acros for decent contrast range with good local contrast. In my experience, Neopan 1600, even when rated at 650, doesn't have much of a gray scale. It's literally black or white.

I generally now shoot B&W in medium format so I can use TXP 320 and use 35mm for color.

Take care,
Tom

GraemeMitchell · May 12, 2006

Interesting. Never even considered a t-grain emulsion. I haven't shot it since high school when t-max 100 was what they fed us. I'm willing to try it. I'l be a tuff critic though, b/c I've always been a fan of traditional grain.

I wanted to stick with hc110 to keep things simple... Are you saying tmy in hc110 is closer to what I'm seek or not? While 777 is really what I'm looking for if I'm willing to dig into a new developer.

GraemeMitchell · May 12, 2006

Oh, Don, and thanks for posting those curves.

Rolleijoe · May 14, 2006

You mentioned what you were "fed" in High School. I remember when I was in HS back in the '70s, the photo class/club had a store to buy film and whatever else you were out of, and Tri-X Professional was indeed available in 35mm.

Like you, I also prefer traditional grain films, and pretty much keep 2 developers on hand: HC-110, and Rodinal. These 2 pretty much are able to give me what I want.

David A. Goldfarb · May 14, 2006

Try J&C Classic 400. It's kind of like the old TXT, but with somewhat more modulated highlights and a bit grainier. It's the same emulsion in all formats, so if you like that, you could also shoot it in 4x5". I haven't tried it in 35mm, but I like it in medium format and large format.

Of course, you may find out that even if it is the same emulsion in all formats, it doesn't necessarily look the same in all formats, since the texture will be different in different formats.

df cardwell · May 14, 2006

Hey Graeme

You can try Plus-X with HC-110... maybe push it a stop. It'll be really close to TXP if you shoot it at 250.

df

GraemeMitchell · May 14, 2006

Great, thanks guys.

David, I've read a bit on Classic 400, but much of it was people discussing the substantial grain. I love grain, but only if I can control it (like with tx). So up until now I've stayed away from it.

Df, pushing Plus-x sounds interesting. My little experience with it was at 100 in xtol and I thought it was an interesting film, but already relatively contrasty at that speed. that was in 120 though, shooting fashion tests. I'm willing to give it another go. Especially if I could shoot it at 200 or 250.

Some really interesting ideas, I guess I need to get some film and start playing.

GraemeMitchell · May 16, 2006

Okay, I dug up an image and posted it that has the charachteristics of txp I'm seeking in 35.

There's a small jpeg here: http://graememitchell.com/txp/

I can't seem to do this with tx. It becomes more about the grays and the middle. I'd even shoot a slower film if need be.

I've yet to pick up tmy or px to test out, but I plan to, but I'm interersted in any further ideas.

Rolleijoe · May 16, 2006

GraemeMitchell said:
Okay, I dug up an image and posted it that has the charachteristics of txp I'm seeking in 35.

There's a small jpeg here: http://graememitchell.com/txp/

I can't seem to do this with tx. It becomes more about the grays and the middle. I'd even shoot a slower film if need be.

I've yet to pick up tmy or px to test out, but I plan to, but I'm interersted in any further ideas.

Disregard the T-grained films altogether, as they have a different "look" than the one you posted. This seems completely possible with Plus-X, done in HC-110 1:50. Very nice tonal range & grain. You can't get that from T-Max films.

Rolleijoe

fschifano · May 16, 2006

I agree with RollieJoe. Plus-X can do this quite handily. Great photo, by the way.

df cardwell · May 16, 2006

With respect, there is nothing old grained films can do that t grain can't: the curves don't lie

it's simply an issue of getting the exposure and development right... which is the same problem no matter the film

Plus x can be made to look similar to TXP because of the curve shape. TMX can't... because of the curve shape. Pushing TMY... yep, easy.

It's just craft and materials.

.

GraemeMitchell · May 16, 2006

Glad it's that simple. And thanks for all the advice. Trying new films is not fun for me, so I appreciate a recommended starting point. I'll pick some plus-x up and try some normal and some pushed a stop.

DF, I believe that you are correct, but b/c I've been using classic emulsions, I'm going to stick with them. Also, for my shooting style I need as much forgiveness as I can get as far as exposure slop. So the "getting the exposure right" sadly is not something that always works out on a long day...still looking for that assistant that understands traditional B&W skills

df cardwell · May 16, 2006

When the t-grain films came out, several 'major' labs turned out to be not very good at:

- following kodak's suggestions, and
-- being willing to go back to 'first semester' film testing

Idiot me, who ended up with some film with no directions, shot it with no expectations and found quickly that TMY worked great in D76.

Some guys I knew, however, were screwed to the wall because the big time labs just didn't give processing that corresponded to what the film did. Great films acquired a bad name. Too bloody bad.

Thank goodness I didn't know how 'touchy' or 'unreliable' it was or I probably would have had the same problems the labs did who created the legend.

TMY will give a straight line from Zone I to Zone ( counting on my fingers here.... ) XIV ( 14 ). That's as forgiving as it gets. TXP, despite a different curve shape, withstands almost as much over exposure.

Ironically, TXP has the reputation for forgiveness, but a quick look at the curve shows it is about as forgiving as a bear trap. If you can handle TXP in the field, doing fashion, you're shooting pretty darned tight... you've got no room to wander.

Have fun with the PX. In the early '50s, it was the 'hot ticket' to push it in D76... before TX got popular. I shot a lot of stage work, in Diafine, and it conveyed the brilliance of being in the wings and looking out on stage. it's a neat, neat film.

.

GraemeMitchell · May 16, 2006

Df, that's interesting. First I've ever heard that t-grains aren't more finicky. You're history makes perfect sense.

As for exposure, I guess the TXP Gods are kind to me. In 4x5 there is almost nothing I don't like about it.

Okay. PX. I'll buy a case and see what happens.

Oh, ouch. Just clicked B&H. $4.85 a roll! You guys work for Kodak don't you!

df cardwell · May 16, 2006

GraemeMitchell said:
Df, that's interesting. First I've ever heard that t-grains aren't more finicky. You're history makes perfect sense.

As for exposure, I guess the TXP Gods are kind to me. In 4x5 there is almost nothing I don't like about it.

Okay. PX. I'll buy a case and see what happens.

Oh, ouch. Just clicked B&H. $4.85 a roll! You guys work for Kodak don't you!

Work for Kodak ?

We can arrange a 2% discount for a Container full.

You're married to TXP, don't change !

agGNOME · May 16, 2006

GraemeMitchell said:
Okay. PX. I'll buy a case and see what happens.

Oh, ouch. Just clicked B&H. $4.85 a roll! You guys work for Kodak don't you!

The price is unfortunate given it's qualities , I suppose it's not popular enough to disperse the cost. Although, it can be had much cheaper in bulk-load form; and in 120 it is inline with other films.

David A. Goldfarb · May 16, 2006

Aside from the characteristic curve issues, TMX and TMY have a different spectral response from traditional films. TMX can look a lot like B&W video or digital B&W in ways that Tri-X or FP-4+ won't. The Delta films are yet something else.

Lachlan Young · May 17, 2006

df cardwellTMY will give a straight line from Zone I to Zone ( counting on my fingers here.... ) XIV ( 14 ). That's as forgiving as it gets. TXP said:
I'll have to try and get some Plus-X - I have a gallon of Diafine that needs fed! What sort of EI were you getting out of it - were you getting the 400 as claimed? Just that I have some stage work to do at the end of June - I was going to use HP5+ and either PC-TEA or FD10, or if all else fails Tri-X in Diafine, but your suggestion is very interesting...

Thanks,

Lachlan

GraemeMitchell · Jun 19, 2006

Okay, shot 15 rolls of Plus-X on my last shoot. Rated around 80. In HC110. Slight push. Ranging from moderate to pretty contrasty scenes. Awesome film, got some lovelystuff. Pretty close to TXP maybe has a bit more 'pop' to it though. I'll post some pics on my site when they're scanned.

Anyway, thanks for the great recommendation. It's a nice change from TX in my Nikons.

Lachlan Young · Jun 22, 2006

df cardwell said:
Have fun with the PX. In the early '50s, it was the 'hot ticket' to push it in D76... before TX got popular. I shot a lot of stage work, in Diafine, and it conveyed the brilliance of being in the wings and looking out on stage. it's a neat, neat film.

Only one word for PX in Diafine - WOW!!! Great film in a great developer when properly seasoned. FP4+ and flash also work very very well in Diafine.

Thanks for the tip,

Lachlan

GraemeMitchell · Jun 23, 2006

Scans with very light tonal corrections and shadow burning.

The PX was processed on the money, the TXP was overdeveloped by probably almost a stop, so it's kinda apples and oranges, but anyway...

http://graememitchell.com/txp.jpg
http://graememitchell.com/px1.jpg
http://graememitchell.com/px2.jpg

35mm film that's akin to TXP

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