35mm C-41 processing issue in sky

peter16 · Jul 2, 2023

I've been shooting 35mm XP-2 which is black and white but is processed in C-41 chemistry. I've been taking it to a supposedly "Pro" lab in Los Angeles that uses dip and dunk chemistry.

In my sky areas I'm getting what looks to me like developer marks from chemistry, I'm not familiar enough with C-41 processing to know what's causing it, I just need to find a lab that doesn't cause this. It looks like it has something to do with the sprocket holes and the agitation...though it's not like the surge marks I remember.

Does anyone on here process 35mm C-41 regularly with a lab they can suggest that gives clean skies? Like maybe Praus, LTI, CRC, Or maybe Richard Photo Lab in LA?

Or am I being unrealistic - is 35mm with an even tone sky always going to show inconsistencies like this? I know it's not light leaks in my camera because it 100% does not show up on regular b&w film I process myself.

some examples:

koraks · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
Or am I being unrealistic - is 35mm with an even tone sky always going to show inconsistencies like this?

No, perfectly even development with 35mm is fairly easy. Probably easier than in other formats, at least in my experience.

Why don't you run your c41 at home? Get one of those sous vide sticks and a kit of C41 chemistry. It's no more difficult than b&w.

foc · Jul 2, 2023

Any chance you could post an image of the negatives, something like this, please? (so we can compare the negative to the scan positive)

A correctly run lab should not cause surge marks on 35mm film, no matter what equipment they use.

If it was surge marks, then in a dip & dunk machine it would suggest excessive nitrogen burst (over agitation) in the developer.

peter16 · Jul 2, 2023

Thanks, What is a sous vide stick? I don't have a darkroom at home, I just use one at a school where I teach. The few friends I have who attempted their own C-41 processing - the results to me always seemed to look way worse than a lab's processing - colors off, weird marks, etc.

MultiFormat Shooter · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
What is a sous vide stick?

It is something like this:

°Cs "Temperature Control System", TCS-1000 Immersion Circulator Thermostat For Mixing Chemistry and Precision Film Processing, 120V ONLY

*This is the 1500W, 120V/60Hz, 1000W/US power plug/model. For 220-240V, 50/60Hz VDE power plug please order from our European distributor. "COLOR FILM PROCESSING MADE EASY" The °Cs "Temperature Control System" TCS-1000 immersion circulator/thermostat is is the simplest solution for precision...

cinestillfilm.com

I have no affiliation with CineStill, and haven't used this particular product. I'm just demonstrating what it is.

AnselMortensen · Jul 2, 2023

FYI:
XP2 can be processed in B/W chemistry.

bags27 · Jul 2, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
FYI:
XP2 can be processed in B/W chemistry.

+1

ILFORD XP2 Super in black and white chemistry

Chris Moss takes us along on his journey where he develops ILFORD XP2S shot at various speeds in black and white chemistry,

www.ilfordphoto.com

bags27 · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
Thanks, What is a sous vide stick? I don't have a darkroom at home, I just use one at a school where I teach. The few friends I have who attempted their own C-41 processing - the results to me always seemed to look way worse than a lab's processing - colors off, weird marks, etc.

View attachment 342751

Any sous vide machine (used on ebay) will do: it just keeps the temp steady. But really, many color developers today can work great at ballpark 102F. Sometimes I'm too lazy and just fill the tank with hot water and when the developer hits around 102 I take it out and it's fine. Cinestill has a 2-step developer that's incredibly easy to use and really nails good color--which you don't even need.

But try B&W developer, above, as it's cheaper and you know it already.

koraks · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
The few friends I have who attempted their own C-41 processing - the results to me always seemed to look way worse than a lab's processing - colors off, weird marks, etc.

It doesn't have to be that way - but of course, anyone can mess up
Do your B&W negatives come out evenly developed and clean? In that case, you can do C41 just as well.

And as said above, this film can also be developed in B&W.

Btw, I can indeed see the unevenness issues in the negative. Sure looks like a processing problem to me.

foc · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
Thanks, What is a sous vide stick? I don't have a darkroom at home, I just use one at a school where I teach. The few friends I have who attempted their own C-41 processing - the results to me always seemed to look way worse than a lab's processing - colors off, weird marks, etc.

View attachment 342751

Thank you for posting the image of the negatives. I can barely see unevenness in sky in the negative strip. I don't see any surge marks either.

I zoomed in and on the bottom sprocket holes, there is a mark on the top left of each sprocket hole. Does this appear on other negatives shot with this camera?

MattKing · Jul 2, 2023

koraks said:
Btw, I can indeed see the unevenness issues in the negative. Sure looks like a processing problem to me.

I can barely see it myself. Somewhat surprisingly though, the areas of increased density aren't adjacent to the sprocket holes, they are adjacent to the spaces between them.

peter16 · Jul 2, 2023

foc said:
Thank you for posting the image of the negatives. I can barely see unevenness in sky in the negative strip. I don't see any surge marks either.

I zoomed in and on the bottom sprocket holes, there is a mark on the top left of each sprocket hole. Does this appear on other negatives shot with this camera?

No it does not seem to.

peter16 · Jul 2, 2023

Thanks everyone for the comments - - no one has a lab to recommend? It is crazy to try a place that does roller transport?

peter16 · Jul 2, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
FYI:
XP2 can be processed in B/W chemistry.

Have you done it and wet printed the negatives in the darkroom?
Everything I've read says that the results aren't nearly as good as C-41 process....I do love the lack of grain in well exposed areas of X-P-2.
I've been rating it at 200 but pretty sure I'm going to bump it down to 100.

AnselMortensen · Jul 2, 2023

peter16 said:
Have you done it and wet printed the negatives in the darkroom?
Everything I've read says that the results aren't nearly as good as C-41 process....I do love the lack of grain in well exposed areas of X-P-2.
I've been rating it at 200 but pretty sure I'm going to bump it down to 100.

I have only developed a few rolls of XP2 120 in Rodinal, and made contact prints. Negs look great at 100.
I haven't had much darkroom time recently.

cmacd123 · Jul 2, 2023

the idea of using a c41 B&W film is that it produces a Dye image which some scanners perfer. a dye image also allows the use of the infrared dust detection that some scanners suport. while one can process the C41 B&W in Black and white developer you will end up with a regular silver image, and so you may as well use regular B&W film.

a good lab SHOULD manage even development with any C41 film.

a sous-vide device is a small heater with a pump and a solid state thermostat. one can set the desired temperature to a tenth of a degree, and the heater will run to bring the entire water bath up to the desired temperature. they seem to run in the 100 dollar range. this is a much cheper solution to getting a resonable controled water bath than the expsnsive systems sold for Photographic use before the Sous Vide cooking craze came out (Sous Vide is under vacuum - the food is sealed in a plastic bag and cooked by dunking the bag in controled temerature water.)

the mark Matt noticed is probably something that was in the gate of the Camera.

MattKing · Jul 2, 2023

cmacd123 said:
the mark Matt noticed is probably something that was in the gate of the Camera.

I think it was foc, not me, who noted them, but otherwise I'd agree.
I was wondering if there is any chance the lab doesn't use dip and dunk for these rolls - or if they are using reels in cages in their dip and dunk line - those areas of increased density look unusual for the version of dip and dunk I'm most familiar with.
I would also try printing the negatives optically. It may be that scanning them accentuates unevenness that would be invisible in an optical workflow.

koraks · Jul 3, 2023

MattKing said:
I can barely see it myself.

Yeah, it's faint, but it's there alright.

Here's the center frame from the photo of the negative strip, inverted and with boosted contrast:

Note the low-density (negative) anomalies along the top edge and how they compare to the first version shown int he thread.

MattKing said:
It may be that scanning them accentuates unevenness that would be invisible in an optical workflow.

Maybe, but I wouldn't mortgage the house on it. Heck, not even the dog's shed.

foc · Jul 3, 2023

peter16 said:
It is crazy to try a place that does roller transport?

Not really, if a lab used a leader card processing machine, then it should be just as good as a dip & dunk.

It is not the machine that matters but how well the lab is run.

Are the images posted from lab scans or your own scans?

peter16 · Jul 3, 2023

koraks said:
Maybe, but I wouldn't mortgage the house on it. Heck, not even the dog's shed.

Haha - Yup....it's in the film.

peter16 · Jul 3, 2023

foc said:
Not really, if a lab used a leader card processing machine, then it should be just as good as a dip & dunk.

It is not the machine that matters but how well the lab is run.

Are the images posted from lab scans or your own scans?

Thanks. I may try a place here in LA.
The images posted are from my own scans. I convinced a school I work at to buy a Pakon. Which, if the film is uncut and you can deal with some frustrating quirks, is blisteringly fast and sharp for proof scans.

foc · Jul 3, 2023

peter16 said:
Thanks. I may try a place here in LA.
The images posted are from my own scans. I convinced a school I work at to buy a Pakon. Which, if the film is uncut and you can deal with some frustrating quirks, is blisteringly fast and sharp for proof scans.

The Pakon is a good scanner.

35mm C-41 processing issue in sky

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