35mm / 120 & Zone System

Matt5791 · Dec 17, 2005

As a recent convert to the zone systems way of thinking and working, I am wondering about the use of 35mm and 120 roll film.

What if I have a mixture of low and high contrast negatives on one roll? This is particularly likely with 36 exposures, although with only 12 on a 120 film it would be more likely they would all be of similar subject and contrast.

Do people simply try and limit using one roll for one type of subject matter and occasion, which might, for example, be predominantly low contrast, and then develop based on the fact that most negatives will benefit from a N+1 development or something?

Would be interested to hear how others operate,

Thanks
Matt

gwatson · Dec 17, 2005

Hi Matt

Film is quite cheap. I generally don't use 35mm, but with 120 I just shoot similar scenes and discard the rest if another shot requires different dev. Not sure how practical this is for 35mm though. You don't really want to discard 32 frames. But I guess if it is important... What you could do is be more general. If you have shots ranging from n to n+2, dev at n+1 and do the rest in the darkroom.

Cheers

Geoff

clogz · Dec 17, 2005

Hello Matt,

A suggestion: buy 35mm film in bulk and make short rolls of those.

Greetings
Hans

gwatson · Dec 17, 2005

Second thoughts: If you have bright conditions you could estimate n-1 and expose at that. If conditions change, change film.

Geoff

JHannon · Dec 17, 2005

If you have a camera with removable backs, you can mark each back normal, N-1 etc. As clogz says, 35mm can be bulk loaded in short lengths and each cassette marked.

photobackpacker · Dec 17, 2005

Zone System and 35mm is somewhat limited owing to the impact of graininess withe extended development (unless you are looking for that.) Even if your film is capable, it is unlikely you would like the results of an N+2 in 35mm. I used two short (12 exposure hand-loaded) rolls - one for N-1 and the other for N and N+1. You achieve the N+1 with selenium intensification after development.

Selenium intensification is a wonderful tool which is surprisingly underused. It provides an honest one zone increase in density with the added benefit of not increasing grain. In the larger formats, you can even attain local intensification by carefully applying the solution to a small portion of your negative with a fine brush. (A bit risky as the change is permanent and irreversable. Practice on a throw-away first!)

With medium format equipment, interchangeable backs are the answer. Given the cost and the weight, I worked the same system two-back system. For me, the step up to 6X7 served only to speed the decision to go to 4X5. I used the 6X7 for second job commercial work to finance the 4X5 addiction.

waynecrider · Dec 17, 2005

At the price of some 35mm bodies nowdays, you could quite possibly buy another, and even then you could shoot short rolls as well.

I"m not a particular fan of shooting in overcast conditions. If anything I would be shooting in sunny bright conditions with deep shadows. I'd would prefer to shoot a second body for this latter condition. Overall, I think your best bet, in order to really be able to get the maximum detail when going + or - in developing is to shoot 120 with seperate backs and skip the 35mm.

df cardwell · Dec 17, 2005

It is simple to build a single negative curve that allows full exposure, correct local contrast, and a long straight line to hold a 14 stop scale.

Through the use of a soft and hard paper developer, and variable grade fiber paper, one can, with a single film/developer combination, meet the needs of all the common circumstances one encounters in picture taking, from ZS descriptions from N-2 to N+2. or beyond.

To do this, it is convenient to use Zone V, at .75 density, as the pivot point of your system, rather than Zone I or II. You also, obviously, build a negative of higher density than old-school thinking suggests for 35mm, but today's materials minimize any shortcoming while making the densities sufficient for tremendous control with MG papers.

This is not an alternative to ZS, but a simplified expression of large format shooting applied to 35mm with contemporary materials.

The biggest obstacle to this is adherence to conventional values and thought patterns. By following the process of the ZS as Adams, White, Kachel and others have taught, I found the effective answer - for me, with 35mm - a single, well crafted film curve and a cohesive system of visualisation, exposure, development, and printing.

Attached are two examples of this 35mm system, a single negative type designed to ZS principles. The first, Rosa Park's Bus is an N-4 scene. The second, APUG's esteemed mrcallow, an N-1. Both printed on normal paper, with different paper developers. Both, straight prints, and rich detail in large prints.

.

rbarker · Dec 17, 2005

For 35mm and 120, I use a "half-fast" adaptation of the Zone System, and usually make no attempt to adjust development from "normal". Essentially, I do Zone-style spot metering of each scene, and then "place" Zone V based on whether I want to give precedence to shadows or highlights.

As noted above, the full ZS, including development adjustments, can be used easily with interchangeable backs on a 120 camera. Short rolls, multiple bodies, and/or switching back and forth can make it work for 35mm, too. But, that's a real PITA. Plus, for me at least, the "emotional content" or subject matter of 35mm and 120 shots is usually more important than full control over tonality and contrast.

KISS whenever possible.

Curt · Dec 17, 2005

For 120; duplicate exposures and cut it in thirds or in half. You could do a snip test also.

Chuck_P · Dec 17, 2005

You could expose each frame to allow for your desired shadow detail, then provide minus development. High contrast frames might well be doable and provide an acceptable print and lower contrast frames might doable might be improved by printing with a higher contrast filter.

I use the multiple 120 back system, I have four backs labled "normal", "minus", "plus", and "compensating". And, I generally try to expose a full roll of 10 frames on the same subject, varying the camera perspective and shadow placements---- I try not have any one roll with different subjects, lighting, etc...but it is sometimes hard to do.

CP

Matt5791 · Dec 18, 2005

Thanks for the replies everyone - pretty much as I thought. Some interesting ideas.

Thanks,

Matt

discotex · Dec 18, 2005

rbarker said:
For 35mm and 120, I use a "half-fast" adaptation of the Zone System, and usually make no attempt to adjust development from "normal". Essentially, I do Zone-style spot metering of each scene, and then "place" Zone V based on whether I want to give precedence to shadows or highlights.

That's exactly my approach Ralph... I tested my film/dev combination to get N and I just use the zone system for metering. My contrast control is done with VC paper.

I'm thinking of buying a second body for colour neg as often I find an image that doesn't work in mono that would be great in colour. I've though about using that for a N+/- B/W roll too.

..Matt

kdanks · Dec 19, 2005

df cardwell said:
It is simple to build a single negative curve that allows full exposure, correct local contrast, and a long straight line to hold a 14 stop scale.
[snip]
Attached are two examples of this 35mm system, a single negative type designed to ZS principles. The first, Rosa Park's Bus is an N-4 scene. The second, APUG's esteemed mrcallow, an N-1. Both printed on normal paper, with different paper developers. Both, straight prints, and rich detail in large prints.

.

That sounds like it could be what I need. Is there a simple explanation of what 'N' is, and how you build the single negative curve? I've been reading about doing film tests with -1, normal and +1 exposure, then -1, normal and +1 development and deciding which gives you the shadow and highlight detail you want for a particular film, but first I want to make sure that I've got the hang of basic exposure.

As an almost complete novice I wouldn't be confident about metering either of those scenes. I assume that if I understand the methodology I would understand how to do that.

Leon · Dec 19, 2005

My practice used to be *develop for the most contrasty scene on the roll then use paper grades and developers to control contrast on the flatter negs* but since I started using Pyrocat HD, I find the compensation and highlight control gained from this developer means I have settled on a standard time for each film, no matter the conditions. this works out really well for me.

haris · Dec 19, 2005

As 35mm film can be "midroll" loaded and unloaded from camera, you mark one roll for normal development, one roll for N-1, etc... Then when you shoot scene which will require normal development load that film, when you shoot N-1 unload previous film and load N-1 marked film, etc... For 120 film it is easy if you have camera with changeable backs. But if you shoot with something like Yashica MAT 124, my guess is that you shoot same roll for one scene, different views etc and develop it as it is needed. Or to restrict yourself to shoot only, for example, N-1 developing needed scenes, and forget other scenes.

And as I see there are better ideas said earlier...

35mm / 120 & Zone System

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