30 second paper fixing?

dancqu · Sep 8, 2009

marcmarc said:
About a year ago I read an article about archival
printing that recommended a 30 second fix.

So my question is what are these stains I'm seeing
on some of my prints? Regards, Marc

In 1981 Ilford came out with THEIR Archival Processing
Sequence. Initially the 30 seconds in film strength fixer
was indicated. Later they upped it to 60 seconds.

To the best of my knowledge Ilford initiated, with that
archival sequence, the use of Film strength fixer for
Prints. I do not recall Kodak ever suggesting, and
for good reason, film strength for prints or so
little as 60 seconds.

The Ilford archival sequence has been dropped and
is no longer suggested for archival purposes. They
do still mention film strength and a 60 second fix.
It's the quickest way to A fixed and washed print
but requires much attention.

Both Kodak and Ilford do promote the two
bath fix. Dan

Photo Engineer · Sep 8, 2009

I've been following this thread and have not commented so far, but many of you know that I spent a lot of time working on fixers at Kodak.

Here are a few thoughts.

1. Fixation is done, whatever the pundits say, when the coating tests free of Silver Halide using a standard test solution.

2. Washing is done, whatever the pundits say, when the coating tests free of hypo with a standard test solution.

If fixing and washing can be done in 15" each, then done is done. I am not saying this is possible, I am pointing out to you that the test will tell you. AAMOF, at 15" the average print will fail and turn brown in a few months.

In any event, if you test good with the above 2 tests, and you adhere to that workflow afterwards, you are safe.

In addition, there are plenty of references to the fact that Baryta itself holds onto fixer and Silver Halide compexes very strongly, more strongly than the paper fibres themselves. Also, addition of other ions will reduce this and allow faster fixing and washing.

I have been working on this for years, and find that there are many ways to speed wash and fix rates but unless your print or film passes one of these tests, you will be in trouble at some time down the road.

PE

marcmarc · Sep 9, 2009

Thanks for the additional replies. Yes, it does seem a delicate balance; one does not want to fix too long but the need to fix for enough time is there. Since I use a school darkroom I can always do an additional wash at home if I'm in doubt.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2009

Bob F. said:
Ah - I see. Do you replace the first bath with the second one until it also reaches 1g/l and repeat - or do you dump both baths when the first bath reaches 1g/l?

Either way, it's a good way of keeping the final silver down to under 0.5g/l using those test strips.

For archival processing, I discard the 1st fixing bath as soon as the silver content has reached 0.5-1.0 g/l. This occurs with images of average print density after each liter of chemistry has processed about twenty 8x10-inch prints. At the same time, the silver content of the 2nd fixing bath is only about 0.05 g/l. At this point, the 2nd bath is promoted to be the 1st and a fresh 2nd bath is prepared and the process repeated. After six such successions, both baths are discarded.

Anon Ymous · Sep 9, 2009

Hello all...

I was watching this thread and since silver concentration levels and test papers (Bob F) have been mentioned, I was wondering if anyone uses 5% potassium iodide solution to check fixer. I've seen the drops becoming yellowish once in the fixer solution, but I was wondering what the silver level is at that point.

TIA

Ulrich Drolshagen · Sep 9, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
Hello all...

I was watching this thread and since silver concentration levels and test papers (Bob F) have been mentioned, I was wondering if anyone uses 5% potassium iodide solution to check fixer. I've seen the drops becoming yellowish once in the fixer solution, but I was wondering what the silver level is at that point.

TIA

I use it. I discard the fixer when the drop of the solution in the fixer drops out as kind of a gray haze. This should be the case when there is about 2% of silver in the fixer.

Ulrich

Lowell Huff · Sep 9, 2009

OMG, Ian, your logic is profound!!

dancqu · Sep 9, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
I was wondering if anyone uses 5% potassium
iodide solution to check fixer. I've seen the drops
becoming yellowish once in the fixer solution,
but I was wondering what the silver level is
at that point. TIA

Kodak terms that test the FT-1 test. Ordinarily
the test roughly indicates the fixer's remaining
capacity. Kodak's specific way of conducting the
test can be found at www.unblinkingeye.com
Never mind the 190 grams; enough for
thousands of tests.

The silver level would be interesting to know.
I believe the test can be quantified by titration
of known quantities of silver in a fixer solution.

Keep in mind a fixer may be dead having never
been used. The fixer will test good but not have
any capacity. Dan

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
Hello all...

I was watching this thread and since silver concentration levels and test papers (Bob F) have been mentioned, I was wondering if anyone uses 5% potassium iodide solution to check fixer. I've seen the drops becoming yellowish once in the fixer solution, but I was wondering what the silver level is at that point.

TIA

My estimate is >2 g/l, which explains why this test is not considered to be reliable for archival processing.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
I've been following this thread and have not commented so far, but many of you know that I spent a lot of time working on fixers at Kodak.

Here are a few thoughts.

1. Fixation is done, whatever the pundits say, when the coating tests free of Silver Halide using a standard test solution.

2. Washing is done, whatever the pundits say, when the coating tests free of hypo with a standard test solution.

If fixing and washing can be done in 15" each, then done is done. I am not saying this is possible, I am pointing out to you that the test will tell you. AAMOF, at 15" the average print will fail and turn brown in a few months.

In any event, if you test good with the above 2 tests, and you adhere to that workflow afterwards, you are safe.

In addition, there are plenty of references to the fact that Baryta itself holds onto fixer and Silver Halide compexes very strongly, more strongly than the paper fibres themselves. Also, addition of other ions will reduce this and allow faster fixing and washing.

I have been working on this for years, and find that there are many ways to speed wash and fix rates but unless your print or film passes one of these tests, you will be in trouble at some time down the road.

PE

PE

Please don't hold back. We appreciate knowledgeable people like yourself to share their highly valuable work and life experiences here.

Photo Engineer · Sep 9, 2009

Ralph;

The Super Fix in the articles section, transplanted from PN, is my first version of Super Universal Fix which is now in version VIII, I think.

The SF in that article will serve to demonstrate a very powerful fix for film or paper, and will also allow shorter wash times to be used. It will also demonstrate facts about fixers that most people here are unaware of such as superadditive effects similar to those seen in developers.

Fixers can have dozens of additive effects that affect both fix and wash times. We found in our R&D at EK that there were optimums for all of these. The possibilities have been ignored pretty much and some of that is due to the use of thiourea in many formulas. But, the formula will be a good starting point.

PE

wogster · Sep 9, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
My estimate is >2 g/l, which explains why this test is not considered to be reliable for archival processing.

I always wondered about that, wouldn't the capacity of a fixer depend partly on the dilution of the fixer. Makes one also wonder if there is a paper equivalent to the film fixer clip test.

Photo Engineer · Sep 9, 2009

wogster said:
I always wondered about that, wouldn't the capacity of a fixer depend partly on the dilution of the fixer. Makes one also wonder if there is a paper equivalent to the film fixer clip test.

Yes, there is!

But it is difficult to carry out and also subjective. I used it all the time at EK though and it worked for me.

PE

marcmarc · Sep 9, 2009

Darn it! I was at Freestyle today picking up film and should have picked up some hypo test as well, but I didn't think of it. This will probably be the best way for me to know for certain that my prints are fixed and washed as est as can be expected.

Ulrich Drolshagen · Sep 10, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
My estimate is >2 g/l, which explains why this test is not considered to be reliable for archival processing.

That's the reason why I use two bath fixation.

Ulrich

dancqu · Sep 10, 2009

wogster said:
I always wondered about that, wouldn't the capacity
of a fixer depend partly on the dilution of the fixer.
Makes one also wonder if there is a paper
equivalent to the film fixer clip test.

Dilution has nothing to do with a fixers capacity.
One liter at 1:9 has no more or no less capacity
than Two liters at 1:19.

There is a paper equivalent to the film clip test
and the test is conducted similarly. Conduct
the test under safe lights.

After the paper test strip has had it's soak turn on
a close room light. If not entirely fixed the paper
will soon go off color. I've found the color's hue
depends upon which paper. For comparison
have handy a throughly fixed sheet
of the paper.

FWIW, a perhaps practical way of converting
a snow white paper to other than snow; the
hue depending upon the paper. Dan

archer · Sep 10, 2009

Dear Ralph;
While I agree that over fixing can be a serious problem and should be avoided if possible, I do not agree that it is anywhere near as bad as underfixing in long or short term permanence.
A poorly built house is eminently prefferable to a house that has burned down and must be rebuilt from scratch. A poor analogy perhaps but certainly germain.
Denise Libby

Photo Engineer · Sep 10, 2009

The more dilute hypo becomes, the less efficient it becomes as a "trap" for silver halide. Therefore, if you dilute a fixer to much, it has less activity (fixing speed) and less capacity. Mees and James discuss this showing a rate plot of fixation vs concentration of hypo and along with it a list of the different types of complexes formed. Therefore I have to disagree with Dancq's comments in post #40.

As for the test of a fix for exhaustion, it is complex but easily done. I totally fog and then develop an 8x10 sheet of paper. I then fix it and wash and dry it. It should have nearly 100% silver developed. I then cut that sheet to make up small 1/4" or 1/8" strips 35mm wide and I store them for later use.

I keep a bottle of Ammonium Ferric EDTA handy and when I want to run a test, I take about 5 ml of fix and 5 ml of the Ferric EDTA solution in a small plastic cup. I dip in the black strip from above and watch to see if it clears to white. This test is quite accurate but complex. You see, if the fix is bad, the "blix" will totally fail or will take forever to clear the paper to white. And, BTW, this will give you a semi accurate measure of your current paper fix time with this particular fixer at whatever dilution or exhaustion state it is in!

In some cases, the strips will only clear to a cream color. This is due to the addenda used in a particular paper, and also can take place with some FB papers.

PE

RalphLambrecht · Sep 10, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Ralph;

The Super Fix in the articles section, transplanted from PN, is my first version of Super Universal Fix which is now in version VIII, I think.

The SF in that article will serve to demonstrate a very powerful fix for film or paper, and will also allow shorter wash times to be used. It will also demonstrate facts about fixers that most people here are unaware of such as superadditive effects similar to those seen in developers.

Fixers can have dozens of additive effects that affect both fix and wash times. We found in our R&D at EK that there were optimums for all of these. The possibilities have been ignored pretty much and some of that is due to the use of thiourea in many formulas. But, the formula will be a good starting point.

PE

PE

Sounds fascinating and very interesting, but I'm not familiar with this section. Can you point me to it, please?

RalphLambrecht · Sep 10, 2009

wogster said:
I always wondered about that, wouldn't the capacity of a fixer depend partly on the dilution of the fixer. Makes one also wonder if there is a paper equivalent to the film fixer clip test.

I'm sure there is a difference, but I have limited my process to film-strength fixer.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 10, 2009

dancqu said:
Dilution has nothing to do with a fixers capacity.
One liter at 1:9 has no more or no less capacity
than Two liters at 1:19. Dan

Pretty tricky, but what if people change dilution without changing their trays?

RalphLambrecht · Sep 10, 2009

archer said:
Dear Ralph;
While I agree that over fixing can be a serious problem and should be avoided if possible, I do not agree that it is anywhere near as bad as underfixing in long or short term permanence.
A poorly built house is eminently prefferable to a house that has burned down and must be rebuilt from scratch. A poor analogy perhaps but certainly germain.
Denise Libby

Denise

No disagreement here. Overfixing is the lesser of the two evils! Fortunately, with some care, both evils can and should be avoided.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 10, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
The more dilute hypo becomes, the less efficient it becomes as a "trap" for silver halide. Therefore, if you dilute a fixer to much, it has less activity (fixing speed) and less capacity. Mees and James discuss this showing a rate plot of fixation vs concentration of hypo and along with it a list of the different types of complexes formed. Therefore I have to disagree with Dancq's comments in post #40.

As for the test of a fix for exhaustion, it is complex but easily done. I totally fog and then develop an 8x10 sheet of paper. I then fix it and wash and dry it. It should have nearly 100% silver developed. I then cut that sheet to make up small 1/4" or 1/8" strips 35mm wide and I store them for later use.

I keep a bottle of Ammonium Ferric EDTA handy and when I want to run a test, I take about 5 ml of fix and 5 ml of the Ferric EDTA solution in a small plastic cup. I dip in the black strip from above and watch to see if it clears to white. This test is quite accurate but complex. You see, if the fix is bad, the "blix" will totally fail or will take forever to clear the paper to white. And, BTW, this will give you a semi accurate measure of your current paper fix time with this particular fixer at whatever dilution or exhaustion state it is in!

In some cases, the strips will only clear to a cream color. This is due to the addenda used in a particular paper, and also can take place with some FB papers.

PE

PE

Please elaborate on how and why this test works a little bit more. It sounds interesting.

Photo Engineer · Sep 10, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
PE

Sounds fascinating and very interesting, but I'm not familiar with this section. Can you point me to it, please?

Try here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

PE

Photo Engineer · Sep 10, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
PE

Please elaborate on how and why this test works a little bit more. It sounds interesting.

Well, there were 2 answers hidden in that post Ralph. I'll answer both.

1. Diluting fixer changes the complexation ability (ratio) of hypo and ammonium ion towards the silver and changes the equillibrium. Look at it this way.... AgX (lots) and Hypo (lots) --> Complex (lots) + excess hypo (lots) but....

AgX(lots) and Hypo (Dlute but lots) --> Complex (lots) + excess hypo (dilute) ---> AgX(some) + free hypo again.

And, as the concentration of hypo changes, the type of complex changes. This is what Mees and James show.

2. Testing fix by making it a blix. The rate determining step in a blix is how fast the silver salt that forms can be removed from the coating. If the hypo is dead, the blix will bleach silver slowly to a brownish silver complex but fail to fix it. So, you get a discolored brownish or blackish strip of paper. If the hypo is active, all silver vanishes and leaves a white to yellow white strip of paper. So, the better the hypo, the whiter the strip becomes and the faster it changes.

I usually make a run with fresh fix and then know what the time is for a given paper and test as I go.

PE

30 second paper fixing?

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