30 second paper fixing?

marcmarc · Sep 6, 2009

Hi Everyone,

About a year ago I read an artical about archival printing that recommended a 30 second fix. This is supposed to prevent fixer from seeping into the fiber paper and eventually discoloring it. I cannot recall where I read this but I thought I'd give it a try. Here's the directions as I recall: After development and stop place print face down in fix and agitate paper around for 30 seconds. Remove print, drain, and place in tray and do a five minute dump and refill rinse with running water. Then place print face down in hypo clear and agitate continuously for five minutes. Wash as normal.

So after a year of doing this, I have mixed results. Some of my prints look fine, others have orange colored splotches usually along the edges of the paper. Others look fine but have brown splotches on the back side of the print. So far the images themselves are unchanged it's just on some of them the edges or back side of the paper that is showing discoloration.

I must point out at this time that I have been using a college darkoom. Therefore, cross-contamination is always a concern. Furthermore, the staff does change the two vats of fixer twice a day based on regular intervals where they will drop some hypo check in the fix. However, there are days where the darkroom gets so crowded that both vats of fixer have an enormous number of 8x10 and 11x14 prints going through them. Since there isn't a holding bath, the fixer vats kind of serve this function and therefore students will let a number of prints sit in the fix before removing them to the wash. Fiber washes are kept at 20 minutes so that all students will be able to get their fiber prints washed (one hopes) before their lab time ends.

So my question is what are these stains I'm seeing on some of my prints? Depleted fixer and not enough time? Poor washing? Any advice would be greatly appreciated since school is in now and I did my first printing yesterday and again I noticed the edges of my fiber prints have orange stains. Thanks.

Regards,

Marc

Ian Grant · Sep 7, 2009

30 second fixing is only safe when you have full control, and the fixer's fresh and not over used. Definitely not ideal for a shared darkroom. They will be under fixed on occasions.

I think if I had to use a communal darkroom I'd give the prints a fresh fix at home, followed by the wash, hypo clear etc, washing the images in the bath.

Ian

Ulrich Drolshagen · Sep 7, 2009

May be you mixed it up with RC-paper. 30" are ok for RC-paper, for FB-paper you will need at least 1'

You may have a look at the following document for reference:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200621111117720.pdf

Ulrich

RalphLambrecht · Sep 7, 2009

I agree with Ian and Ulrich. Unfortunately, you did not mention RC or FB, but 30s is too short for either paper. It's not too short for fixing RC, but it is too short to fix uniformly. I suggest 1min for RC and 2x 1-2min for FB (two-bath fixing).

The article you've read is not all wrong though. The general idea is to fix strong and short rather than long and weak. You don't want to give the fixer a change to penetrate the paper fibers. It's too hard to wash it out of there. If you use film-strength fixer, the above times will work for most papers, but to be absolutely sure, conduct a test. For FB, check into two-bath fixing.

Most premature print failures are due to poor fixing and not due to poor washing.

In any event, you must tone your prints for print longevity. Selenium, or better sulfide, toning will protect your print. Full protection needs full toning, but some toning is better than none.

Sulfide toning has the side-effect of showing poor fixing right away, because it reacts with the developed and the undeveloped silver, creating a brown to yellow stain. It will ruin your print, but at least. you know right away that something is wrong with your fixing.

Did I mention two-bath fixing?

Slixtiesix · Sep 7, 2009

I agree with the before mentioned. 30 seconds is way too short. I use the two-bath technique and fix RC for 2x30 seconds, FB 2x1 Minute, but I use the fixer in higher concentration like it is used for film, e.g. 1+4. Very thick FB Paper has to be fixed even longer.
Greetz, Benjamin

Stan160 · Sep 7, 2009

Slixtiesix said:
...Very thick FB Paper has to be fixed even longer.
Greetz, Benjamin

I'm interested in why this is the case. If the emulsion layer which needs to be fixed is a consistent thickness on one surface of the paper, why does the support thickness effect the fixing time?

Ian

jmedlock · Sep 7, 2009

From the Ilford .pdf on two-bath fixing:

The capacity of a fixer can be significantly increased, while still obtaining optimum permanence, by using a second fixing bath. When the silver level of the first bath has reached 2g/l (approximately 40 20.3x25.4cm (8x10inch) prints per litre/US quart of working strength fixer), discard it and replace it with the second bath. Make up a fresh second bath. This cycle can be repeated up to four times but, in any case, replace both baths after one week.

I use two-bath fixing for fiber paper, however I have not been tossing the two fixer solutions after one week, but keep them much longer than that (a month or two in the longest case, unless I need to discard/replace the first solution sooner than that).

Is this bad bad bad? I haven't had any problems with my prints that are now a few years old, but I never realized that Ilford was recommending to toss both solutions after one week.

Ronald Moravec · Sep 7, 2009

You need FILM strength fix. Then 30 sec with RC. 60 sec with fiber. I normally use 2 baths with time cut in half for each. I use up my film fix this way ( first bath) which normally I use but one time. Been doing this for decades without a problem.

Fix exhausts fast this way so be careful .

Stan160 · Sep 7, 2009

jmedlock said:
From the Ilford .pdf on two-bath fixing:

I use two-bath fixing for fiber paper, however I have not been tossing the two fixer solutions after one week, but keep them much longer than that (a month or two in the longest case, unless I need to discard/replace the first solution sooner than that).

Is this bad bad bad? I haven't had any problems with my prints that are now a few years old, but I never realized that Ilford was recommending to toss both solutions after one week.

Me neither, I keep the solutions (in a Nova slot processor, with the slots covered when not in use) until the capacity is reached, which could be several weeks. Never had a problem with staining from selenium or thiourea toners, and HT-2 test shows only trace thiosulphate levels after washing, so I assume the system is OK. My oldest FB print is still less than 2 years, but none have any sign of discolouration so far.

Ian

Bob F. · Sep 7, 2009

Of about half a dozen fibre papers I tested recently, I found that only one would fix safely in under 40 seconds: Fomatone Warmtone for some reason was fixed in under 20s. The others (MGIV, MIWT, Kentmere Fineprint, Foma etc) required 40s (I was using quite rough steps - 10/20/30/40/60/80 seconds). This was using a single bath of fresh film-strength fixer that clears 120 FP4+ in approx 12-15 seconds. If you fix exposed paper for 30 seconds and find the paper has not discoloured in developer after the usual 2-3 minutes do not assume all is well - leaving it for another few minutes may lead to disappointment as it starts to go grey. My tests had the fixed paper in developer for 15 minutes and some only started to discolour after 10 mins or so. The properly fixed test strips did not discolour after 20 mins.

Anon Ymous · Sep 7, 2009

jmedlock said:
... I haven't had any problems with my prints that are now a few years old, but I never realized that Ilford was recommending to toss both solutions after one week.

Given the fact that Ilford Rapid fixer and Hypam have the same working solution life in open trays (a week), I assume that this recommendation was meant for those who leave their chemicals at the trays.

fschifano · Sep 7, 2009

Ronald Moravec said:
You need FILM strength fix. Then 30 sec with RC. 60 sec with fiber. I normally use 2 baths with time cut in half for each. I use up my film fix this way ( first bath) which normally I use but one time. Been doing this for decades without a problem.

Fix exhausts fast this way so be careful .

Let's face it. Ilford wants to sell fixer (and other stuff) so I'm not surprisedat their recommendation. Usually, fixer can last quite a while unless it's used up. I've only once had a batch go bad on me and that was after many weeks. Oh yes, I don't leave it out in open trays after the printing session. I do bottle it back up again.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 7, 2009

Ronald Moravec said:
You need FILM strength fix. Then 30 sec with RC. 60 sec with fiber. I normally use 2 baths with time cut in half for each. I use up my film fix this way ( first bath) which normally I use but one time. Been doing this for decades without a problem.

Fix exhausts fast this way so be careful .

30s fix for RC, cut in half for two-bath fix = 15s each

i don't know how to do that. It takes me 10-15s to drain the print from fixer alone.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 7, 2009

Bob F. said:
Of about half a dozen fibre papers I tested recently, I found that only one would fix safely in under 40 seconds: Fomatone Warmtone for some reason was fixed in under 20s. The others (MGIV, MIWT, Kentmere Fineprint, Foma etc) required 40s (I was using quite rough steps - 10/20/30/40/60/80 seconds). This was using a single bath of fresh film-strength fixer that clears 120 FP4+ in approx 12-15 seconds. If you fix exposed paper for 30 seconds and find the paper has not discoloured in developer after the usual 2-3 minutes do not assume all is well - leaving it for another few minutes may lead to disappointment as it starts to go grey. My tests had the fixed paper in developer for 15 minutes and some only started to discolour after 10 mins or so. The properly fixed test strips did not discolour after 20 mins.

Are you saying, 1-2 min twice (two-bath fixing) is enough?

Bob F. · Sep 7, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
Are you saying, 1-2 min twice (two-bath fixing) is enough?

I do not use two-bath fixing and haven't tested it. I fix for 90s in a single bath and dump the fixer when the silver content approaches 1g/l using Ag+ test strips (by which point the clearing time for 120 FP4+ has increased by about 50%). That being the case, one minute in each of two baths seems reasonable as long as the baths are not too contaminated. That is why I prefer a single bath: I'd rather test a single bath than rely on my memory of how many square mm I had put through two separate baths. I can be somewhat sloppy with some things (age of developer, etc) but sufficient fixing and washing is so important I get quite anal about it.

marcmarc · Sep 7, 2009

Thanks for the replies. I goofed and forgot to mention that these papers are indeed fiber (Kentmere VC Glossy) My RC prints stay in the fix for a couple minutes until the next print is ready for fixing. Needless to say, they look fine.

I agree that a two bath fixing sequence would be ideal, but there is no room for such a set up on our wet side work stations. I usually do my fiber printing first thing in the morning before the first class gets in there for their lab work. Therefore I presume the fix is still good; as I've mentioned the wonderful staff keeps up on it by dropping hypo check in the solution fairly often.

archer · Sep 8, 2009

What's the big hurry? Over fixing is, unless carried to extreme, not a serious problem. Underfixing in any form is a recipe for disaster.. now or later. When you consider the effort to make an image and then commit that image to paper, it is only prudent to lean toward the conservitive unless the image is not worth the time it took to make it, then do with it what you will. Only you know what your work is woth.
Denise Libby

Slixtiesix · Sep 8, 2009

I´ve mixed something up in my previous post! FB paper with a thicker emulsion that contains more silver has of course to be fixed longer. If I remember right it was the old "Forte" paper (now Adox i think) that this was the case with. The thickness of the paper is not relevant, but a thicker paper base has to be washed longer.

Thank you Ian, you made thinking about this again.

CBG · Sep 8, 2009

Bob F. said:
... dump the fixer when the silver content approaches 1g/l using Ag+ test strips ...

Hi Bob, Where do you get those test strips? Thanks!

Bob F. · Sep 8, 2009

CBG said:
Hi Bob, Where do you get those test strips? Thanks!

Silverprint in the UK. They used to be supplied by Tetenal but the last ones I bought from Silverprint were in the original manufacturer's packaging rather than Tetenal's. I don't know if this means Tetenal have discontinued them or if Silverprint are sourcing them direct from the manufacturer instead of Tetenal. They also have a pH indicator next to the silver one.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 8, 2009

Bob F. said:
I do not use two-bath fixing and haven't tested it. I fix for 90s in a single bath and dump the fixer when the silver content approaches 1g/l using Ag+ test strips (by which point the clearing time for 120 FP4+ has increased by about 50%). That being the case, one minute in each of two baths seems reasonable as long as the baths are not too contaminated. That is why I prefer a single bath: I'd rather test a single bath than rely on my memory of how many square mm I had put through two separate baths. I can be somewhat sloppy with some things (age of developer, etc) but sufficient fixing and washing is so important I get quite anal about it.

Bob

In two-bath fixing, only the first bath is tested. I dump it as soon as it reached 1g/l. The beauty with two-bath fixing is that the first bath is always followed by a fresh bath. This makes fixing very consistent, because it makes little difference if the fist bath is fresh or not.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 8, 2009

archer said:
What's the big hurry? Over fixing is, unless carried to extreme, not a serious problem. Underfixing in any form is a recipe for disaster.. now or later. When you consider the effort to make an image and then commit that image to paper, it is only prudent to lean toward the conservitive unless the image is not worth the time it took to make it, then do with it what you will. Only you know what your work is woth.
Denise Libby

Overfixing must be avoided at all cost. After a few minutes, the fixer is so deeply imbedded into the fibers that all washing in the worlds won't get it out.

Fix as long as necessary and as short as possible!

RalphLambrecht · Sep 8, 2009

Slixtiesix said:
I´ve mixed something up in my previous post! FB paper with a thicker emulsion that contains more silver has of course to be fixed longer. If I remember right it was the old "Forte" paper (now Adox i think) that this was the case with. The thickness of the paper is not relevant, but a thicker paper base has to be washed longer.

Thank you Ian, you made thinking about this again.

You are correct. The same is true for some Kodak FB papers.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 8, 2009

Bob F. said:
Silverprint in the UK. They used to be supplied by Tetenal but the last ones I bought from Silverprint were in the original manufacturer's packaging rather than Tetenal's. I don't know if this means Tetenal have discontinued them or if Silverprint are sourcing them direct from the manufacturer instead of Tetenal. They also have a pH indicator next to the silver one.

They are worth having. You also get them at any professional lab-supply store. There are several on the internet.

Bob F. · Sep 8, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
Bob

In two-bath fixing, only the first bath is tested. I dump it as soon as it reached 1g/l. The beauty with two-bath fixing is that the first bath is always followed by a fresh bath. This makes fixing very consistent, because it makes little difference if the fist bath is fresh or not.

Ah - I see. Do you replace the first bath with the second one until it also reaches 1g/l and repeat - or do you dump both baths when the first bath reaches 1g/l?

Either way, it's a good way of keeping the final silver down to under 0.5g/l using those test strips.

30 second paper fixing?

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