2nd-pass lith question about developer dilution

Hello,

I have some Ansco 70 lith developer made up and will shortly make a copper sulphate bleach in order to try my hand at second-pass lith printing. As my reference, I'm planning to use a translation of Wolfgang Meorsch's document on the subject and which is available here: https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2nd-pass-Basics-and-Papers.pdf

I have a doubt as to the dilution of the lith developer used for redevelopment. At the beginning of point 9 on the first page, there's the line: "Redeveloping: dilute your lith developer 10x – 30x stronger than you usually do". To me, this means that I should use less dilute solution than I do for direct lith printing. However, I'm wondering if this is correct, and that perhaps the text should read "10x-30x more dilute than you usually do". I say this because in the same paragraph there's the following: "The problem is, that the blacks come first, sometimes too fast. That´s why the developer should be weak". Am I right to think there's a mistake in the translation?

In the case of Ansco 70, I understand that for direct lith printing, after mixing part 1 and 2 together, the resultant solution should be diluted with water in the ratio of 1:23 to make the working solution (and adjusting the dilution from there, as required).

Can anyone suggest, please, a good dilution of Anso 70 in 2nd pass printing? ie. a good dilution of Anso 70 for redevelopment after the bleaching stage.

Thanks,

PS. This is the formula for Ansco which I took from the Unblinking Eye site:

Solution 1

Water at 125° F (52° C) 750 cc
Hydroquinone 25 g
Potassium metabisulfite 25 g
Potassium bromide 25 g
Cold water to make 1 liter


Solution 2

Cold water 1 liter
Sodium hydroxide* 36 g

* or Potassium hydroxide 50 g

Yes, a naive translation from German is likely to result in this phrasing, it's probably what you suspect: more dilute. Hopefully someone with experience with the process can confirm.

Yes you should translate like this : dilute it 10 times to 30 times your usual dilution.
I used to experiment with 10ml A + 10ml B + 1 or 2 or 3 Liters. (Moersch dev)
What Moersch also wrote and is very important is to use Warm water to speed up the process.
You will have to experiment with the Ansco formula.

Here's the original text: https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2nd-pass-Einfuehrung-und-Papiere.pdf

Verdünnen Sie Ihren Lith-Entwickler 10x - 30x stärker als gewöhnlich.

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The English translation is literal. The original German text is somewhat ambiguous. "Stärkerer Verdünnung" is usually intended to mean more dilute, but there are examples where it means the exact opposite. In this context, however, it likely means more dilute.

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'll try a 10 times more dilute solution first and yes, I'll bring the water up to 40°C. Interestingly, when I used Google to translate the German into Portuguese, the result was the equivalent of "10x-30x more dilute" with no ambiguity. Whereas into English, the translation was much the same as the PDF in my first post.

In English, the ambiguity is quite similar when we speak of a 'higher dilution', which for this reason I try to avoid.

Yesterday evening I tried unsuccessfully to do 2nd pass lith printing. I had two prints at the ready: 1) a print deliberately overexposed by half a stop on Ilford MG FB Classic paper and which had been developed with home made Agfa 135 developer with extra potassium bromide for warmth. 2) A print on Ilford MG RC Classic pearl finish paper that had been overexposed accidentally some years ago. It would have been developed in Ilford MG developer.

As was discussed in my recent thread starting here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/2nd-pass-lith-question-about-developer-dilution.210207/ , I used Wolfgang Moersch's instructions and started the process by bleaching the above prints. Here's where things started to go wrong....

Step 1 - Bleaching

I used the following formula and had read somewhere that the copper sulphate bleach should be used at a dilution of 1+9:

Copper (Cupric) Sulfate..................................50 g
Concentrated Sulfuric Acid (EXTREME CARE!)..............6.5 ml (232ml of 2.8% solution) *
Sodium Chloride (Common Salt)........................... 50 g
Water to make..........................................1000 ml

I don't think I made any mistakes with this. I purchased the most dilute sulphuric acid solution that I could find (2.8%) and calculated that I would need 232ml to match 6.5ml of concentrate.

The subsequent 1+9 dilution of the above took forever to bleach the prints and I had no patience or time to bleach either fully, as suggested in Moersch's PDF. For the FB print I kept adding more copper sulphate bleach until I had ultimately a 5+9 dilution. I bleached for a full hour but all the same, a pale image was still visibly well present on the print when I gave up.

One interesting thing happened though, while the FB print simply got more pale in the bleach, the RC print turned a very nice dark brown hue. Unfortunately I didn't take a photo of it at that point (and later destroyed the print in subsequent steps), but would this print have been stable after washing?

Step 2 - Redevelopment

I used home made Ansco 70 as my lith developer. For direct lith printing, a 1:23 dilution is recommended as a starting point. I chose to dilute this by a factor of 10 for a 1:230 dilution, adding 2.2ml each of parts A and B to a litre of water at 40°C.

Because my FB print was the more pale, I chose to use this first. I added it to the developer solution. Redevelopment took place however it was very slow, I think it took 15 minutes, although I don't remember. No, I didn'rt have a baymarie to keep the solution at 40°C. There wasn't that much of a colour change at this point (probably not helped by the slow redevelopment). The print was perhaps a little warmer, however.

Step 3 - Stop bath and fixer

The stop bath showed not change as expected. Moesrsch's document does warn that the print will brighten some in the fixer and that the print should be "snatched" form the redevelopment solution (in my case, no such urgency was necessary) with the print a darker shade than that desired in the final product. When however I placed my print in the fixer, the print immediately turned a sickly pale orange, far too pale to be displayed and probably 2-3 stops lighter than before it went in. I then went on to destroy my nicely toned RC print.

What might have gone wrong here?

Thanks!

Xícara said:

As was discussed in my recent thread starting here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/2nd-pass-lith-question-about-developer-dilution.210207/

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Moderator note: I've merged the post I quoted from above into this thread so it's all in one place.

Xícara said:

overexposed by half a stop

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Sounds subtle. I think you want 1-2 stops for 2nd pass lith, no? I've only tried it once or twice; I can't remember how much I overexposed, but as I recall, it was quite a lot.

Xícara said:

extra potassium bromide for warmth

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Not needed; all the color will have to come from lith redevelopment. But it doesn't hurt either.

Xícara said:

I used the following formula and had read somewhere that the copper sulphate bleach should be used at a dilution of 1+9:

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I've used copper sulfate bleach several times - although never for lith. However, I never added any acid to it. Is it necessary? Seemed to work fine for me without it.

Xícara said:

a pale image was still visibly well present on the print when I gave up.

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Note that when bleaching a silver image back into a silver halide image, it's very well possible that you'll keep seeing a faint image due to the subtle color of the silver halide. Also, if any staining or toning happened (possibly inadvertently, e.g. due to contamination of chemistry), this may also remain visible.

Anyway, the question arises why you wouldn't use a tried and tested ferricyanide bleach? It's cheap, fast and effective.

Xícara said:

while the FB print simply got more pale in the bleach, the RC print turned a very nice dark brown hue

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Something's not right if that happened. It sounds to me like the image was getting sepia toned as you were bleaching it. The only source of sulfur I can see in your chemistry would be the sulfuric acid. I don't know if, how and why it might break down, but again, I'd just leave out the sulfuric acid and/or just use a pH neutral ferricyanide bleach instead. It's also possible that the print you used wasn't washed properly and it had significant traces if fixer left in it, which acted as a sulfur donor.

Xícara said:

Redevelopment took place however it was very slow, I think it took 15 minutes

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The question is whether you saw any infectious development happening. I guess not, since you don't mention it. In lith development (also 2nd pass), you get very slow/faint development initially, and then all of a sudden the shadows start kicking in very rapidly. If you didn't see this happening, you didn't get actual lith development.

Xícara said:

When however I placed my print in the fixer, the print immediately turned a sickly pale orange

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That's interesting as it suggests that development was all but done, but this very dramatic reduction of density I would only expect with very, very weak development.

I assume you didn't take any photos to illustrate what you saw?

In any case, try the following:
* Use a regular ferricyanide bleach. No acid! If you somehow must use the copper bleach, leave out the acid. Mix the bleach as strong as it needs to be to get the bleaching done within a few minutes. Don't worry if this means the concentration is different from what the literature says. Bleaching action is influenced by many factors.
* Try and bleach, then redevelop a print in the regular way to verify that your process works in principle. So no lith development for the second step, but regular paper development. You should end up with the same print that you started out with. If you lose density along the way, something's not right.
* Make sure to wash well after bleaching the print. Start with RC paper because it's easier/quicker to wash. Once you get that to work, try fiber if you want.

koraks said:

Sounds subtle. I think you want 1-2 stops for 2nd pass lith, no? I've only tried it once or twice; I can't remember how much I overexposed, but as I recall, it was quite a lot.

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Perhaps it was one stop. It was quite dark. I have a photo of the RC print before it was processed, but not the FB, unfortunately. The FB print was at least as dark:

koraks said:

Anyway, the question arises why you wouldn't use a tried and tested ferricyanide bleach? It's cheap, fast and effective.

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I was impressed with the colour of a Ludwig Römer lith print on Flickr. He had used a copper bleach, but one from Moersch. He describes the process in the discussion


But yes, I have ferricyanide that I've used for copper toning. Will find a formula and try this next time.

koraks said:

t's also possible that the print you used wasn't washed properly and it had significant traces if fixer left in it, which acted as a sulfur donor.

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Yes, quite possible. It was any early print by me and I didn't have a flowwing water wash tray at that stage, I don't think

koraks said:

The question is whether you saw any infectious development happening. I guess not, since you don't mention it. In lith development (also 2nd pass), you get very slow/faint development initially, and then all of a sudden the shadows start kicking in very rapidly. If you didn't see this happening, you didn't get actual lith development.

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No, I didn't and was aware of that. I think next time I will try a 1:23 dilution.

koraks said:

That's interesting as it suggests that development was all but done, but this very dramatic reduction of density I would only expect with very, very weak development.

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Yes, hopefully that's it

koraks said:

I assume you didn't take any photos to illustrate what you saw?

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I have a photo of the FB print at the end of 1 hour of bleaching in the wash tray:



Oh and here are my two prints after fixing. In the case of the smaller RC print (church), I hardly did any redevelopment because the print was already with a nice darkish brown shade. Interesting that the fixer took away what was there before redevelopment (of which nothing noticible was added.



Thanks for your help!

I should add that I noticed that the redevelopment of the FB print in the 1:230 Ansco70 developer, was very gradual - after 15 minutes or so, I gave up and put the print in the stop. Moersch advises to keep the print in the stop for longer than normal. I usually put prints in the stop bath for 30 seconds. This time I did 45 seconds before transferring to the fixer.

Xícara said:

I have a photo of the FB print at the end of 1 hour of bleaching in the wash tray:

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Thanks; this helps. This is an incompletely bleached print.

Xícara said:

the fixer took away what was there before redevelopment

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I'd expect this to happen if the fixer, the tray or the print somehow became contaminated with bleach just prior to, or during fixing. This would turn the fixer into a reducer bath.

Time in the stop bath shouldn't be very critical; 30-45 seconds sounds fine. I mostly did single pass lith and usually stopped for maybe 10 seconds or so.

koraks said:

I'd expect this to happen if the fixer, the tray or the print somehow became contaminated with bleach just prior to, or during fixing. This would turn the fixer into a reducer bath.

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Can't imagine it was contaminated and the bleach was pretty infective to begin with. I'd used this fixer in two light printing sessions before, but I'll make up a new batch for the next attempt!

In experiments like these, small amounts of carried-over chemistry can create big problems. I'd recommend sticking with fresh chemistry and pay attention to cleanliness in work procedures.

koraks said:

In experiments like these, small amounts of carried-over chemistry can create big problems. I'd recommend sticking with fresh chemistry and pay attention to cleanliness in work procedures.

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Yes, I see and will do. Thanks again for your help.

koraks said:

In English, the ambiguity is quite similar when we speak of a 'higher dilution', which for this reason I try to avoid.

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Funny how we perceive language differently. I would interpret both the English "higher dilution" and the German "stärker verdünnt" to clearly mean "more dilute". I only see ambiguity coming in when the German is translated word by word. Sorry about the OT.

koraks said:

Anyway, the question arises why you wouldn't use a tried and tested ferricyanide bleach?

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One last question: Would the following formula and concentration be suitable?

"30 g of potassium ferricyanide and 30 g of potassium bromide to a liter of water"

That sounds about right. It's really not very critical. If the bleach is slow, add some bromide. If it's fast, dilute it. I never found the ferricyanide to bromide ratio very critical. When I mix a bleach like this, I just use half a teaspoon of one thing and a good pinch of the other. The brighter the yellow color, the faster it is...

I have used Ansco 70 on Agfa record rapid and got the reddish color pretty much straight away, different papers will give you different colors

case-ie said:

I have used Ansco 70 on Agfa record rapid and got the reddish color pretty much straight away, different papers will give you different colors

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Can you please state:

• was this direct lith development?
• dilution of Ansco 70 from stock?
• temperature? approx dev time at snatch point?

Thank you.

bernard_L said:

Can you please state:

• was this direct lith development?
• dilution of Ansco 70 from stock?
• temperature? approx dev time at snatch point?

Thank you.

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Yes direct Lith in dilution from stock. Temperature would have been between 25º and 30º+C.
The red colour varied and I remember one was too red for my liking, probably the last print of the cycle, Snatchpoint from memory between 8 and 12 minutes.
I hope this answers your question.

case-ie said:

Yes direct Lith in dilution from stock.

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Sorry I wasn't explicit. What I would like to know is what is the dilution (from stock) that you used. Is it 1:23 as stated in the initial post? Or whatever value worked for you.
I know it's only a starting point, but as such it is already valuable information.

bernard_L said:

Sorry I wasn't explicit. What I would like to know is what is the dilution (from stock) that you used. Is it 1:23 as stated in the initial post? Or whatever value worked for you.
I know it's only a starting point, but as such it is already valuable information.

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My dilution is 1+1+ 50+ 3 - A, B, water, old brown, and I top up my dilution after every print. If this will work for you let me know, and burn a candle somewhere because it's a miracle that I found my notes!