2nd Fixer - Where in Workflow for Selinium Toned Print?

aoresteen

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For years I've followed Ansel Adam's print workflow (The Negative, page 85, The New Ansel Adams Photography Series, 1st Edition 1983). Ansel states that you do the 1st fixer, rinse, and then store in cold water for final processing. You then process the pint in the 2nd fixer for 3 minutes, then go directly into the selenium toner, then Hypo clearing, rinse and wash.

As I'm setting up my new darkroom it would be a lot easier to follow the 1st fixer directly with the 2nd fixer, rinse & then store. I don't have the sink space that I had in my last darkroom. I would then put the print into the toner, hypo clear, rinse and wash.

Why does Ansel recommend going directly from the 2nd fixer into the selenium toner bath? What problems will I encounter if I do the 2nd fix and then store before putting the print in selenium toner?

Thanks!
 

Bill Burk

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You will need to very carefully evaluate your process plan.

I have two reasons to wash fully before Selenium toning.

First, I found that if I go from 2nd fix to Selenium, I get staining.

Second I just don't like the idea of contaminating the Selenium with fix. (I don't want to reduce the life of my Selenium toner because it is more important to dispose of it properly - I want it to last as long as possible).
 

mike c

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I have interpreted Ansel's procedure as this, you can go from the second fix directly in to the selenium toner, or fix then wash and tone later , which is what I do for lack of tray space.
 

MattKing

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Selenium toner has a fair amount of fixer in it, so I expect that is why you can go straight from fixer to selenium toner.

I wonder if Selenium toner was a lot cheaper than fixer in AA's day?
 
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aoresteen

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So I should be able to do the 1st & 2nd fix, rinse & store, then tone without any issues?
 

MattKing

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So I should be able to do the 1st & 2nd fix, rinse & store, then tone without any issues?
I think that you will need to either go straight from 2nd fixer to selenium toner or fully wash before you store.
 

Vaughn

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So I should be able to do the 1st & 2nd fix, rinse & store, then tone without any issues?

No, you must fully wash the prints...This is what I did for years when I was silver gelatin printing. I would fully wash prints, dry and store them until I have a dozen or more 16x20s prints I wanted to selenium tone . I soaked the dry prints for a minimum of ten minutes (usually much longer) before toning. The Ilford Gallerie I would tone to completion, for the Portriga Rapid the toner was carefully mixed, at the proper temp and timed as it changed color drastically...and I wanted an intermediate color.
 

Bill Burk

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I'll just say it depends on your fixer.

I find the prints turn brown when I go straight from fixer to Selenium toner.
 

Arklatexian

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Selenium toner has a fair amount of fixer in it, so I expect that is why you can go straight from fixer to selenium toner.

I wonder if Selenium toner was a lot cheaper than fixer in AA's day?


I've been around photography a long, long time and starting in the late 1940s, I don't ever remember Selenium toner as being cheaper than sodium thiosulfate fixer. As a matter of fact, I don't remember any other photo chemical as inexpensive as that type of fixer if you bought it in bulk. That type of fixer is still one of the least expensive darkroom chemicals. I am not talking about the Ammonium based rapid fixers that many use today. I am sure someone will probably prove me wrong, possibly, by bringing up acetic acid or maybe photo-flo. Vinegar has always been pretty cheap and some of us did use it from time to time for stop bath..........Regards!
 

mr rusty

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Whatever Ansel did, I can absolutely confirm if you go straight from Ilford Rapid fix to Ilford selenium toner on some papers you will get staining. Particularly after lith. I find a full wash is necessary to eliminate staining.
 

ChuckP

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Does anyone see any problems with letting half fixed paper sit for hours in a holding tray? Lights will be on for a lot of the time.
 

mike c

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Whatever Ansel did, I can absolutely confirm if you go straight from Ilford Rapid fix to Ilford selenium toner on some papers you will get staining. Particularly after lith. I find a full wash is necessary to eliminate staining.
I'm with you, but Adams did mention diluting his Selenium with Kodak Hypo-Clear.
 

David Allen

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Why does Ansel recommend going directly from the 2nd fixer into the selenium toner bath?
Because this second bath is plain hypo NOT rapid fixer.

Ansel Adams sequence was 3 minutes fixing in an acid-hardener fixer for three minutes followed by a thorough rinse. You then fix again using Plain hypo (Sodium Thiosulfate) for three minutes.

What is important is that Selenium toning requires an alkaline environment.

What problems will I encounter if I do the 2nd fix and then store before putting the print in selenium toner?

Many people confuse Ansel's two bath fixing with the contemporary usage of the phrase. What Ansel meant was that you fixed in a fresh bath of acid-hardener fixer, then thoroughly washed it to get the acid fixer out of the paper and then used a second bath of plain hypo (which is approximately PH neutral) to 'prepare' the print ready for the Selenium toner. As the acid has been removed and the print is not coming from an acid fixer bath, it can be placed directly into the toner without any staining problems.

The contemporary usage of the phrase 'two bath fixing' is generally using two separate baths of rapid fixer to ensure full and effective fixing of the prints. The first fixer bath does most of the hard work but gets contaminated relatively quickly so the print is then moved to a second bath of fresh fixer to complete the task of fully fixing the prints. By testing the first fixer bath, the photographer can determine when it has reached the end of its useful life as an archival efficient fixer whereupon it is discarded. Being relatively uncontaminated, the second fixer bath can then be used as the first fixer bath and a new fresh batch of fixer can be made up for use as the second fixer bath.

Because rapid fixer is acidic, it is essential to thoroughly rinse the prints before introducing them to Selenium toner. Failure to do so will often result in staining of the print.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de
 

Sirius Glass

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What the others said. If you are going to store the print before toning, you must full wash the print.
 

spijker

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I give my FB prints a 1 minute rinse after a 1 minute ilford rapid fix 1+4. No stains. After toning; another rinse, HCA, wash. BTW selenium toner can be replenished practically forever. No need to discard it. Search for Doremus Scudder's post on this.
 
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MattKing

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Thank you David Allen!
 
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Since I've been mentioned, I'll chime in on this.

Most of the answers above are correct, but we need to collate and organize a bit

First, my work flow:

Develop - Stop - Fix 1 - Thorough Wash, Dry and Store
----then, on another day I do a toning session-------
Water Soak - Fix 2 - Selenium Tone - Wash Aid - Thorough Wash - Stabilizer - Dry - Store

I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam diluted 1+9 (or a similar rapid fixer in the "print dilution"). I never have problems with staining when transferring directly from fix 2 to the toner (except once when I inadvertently underfixed - the resultant staining actually helped me diagnose the problem).

Which brings us to staining in the selenium toner. There are two reasons a print will stain in the toner. The first is inadequate fixing. In this case, you can get blotches of stain in areas that were not fully fixed or you can get an overall stain that looks like fogging (possibly with a yellow tinge). This is easy to correct; fix well first. As an aside here, your selenium toning step is a good check for adequate fixation. If you don't get stains like these, you've likely fixed well.

The second cause of staining is using a fixer that is too acid for an immediate transfer to selenium toner without an complete wash in between. This can be solved by changing the second fixer too a less-acid one or simply washing completely before toning. Related to this is staining from inadequate washing between the first and second fix; blotchy staining can result here as well. A "rinse" is not adequate in this scenario; a full wash is needed.

Sometimes a combination of these problems is present, in which case a compound solution is needed; i.e., fix well and then use a non-acid second fix or wash well. It's really pretty simple...

I use a variety of papers, but usually a neutral-tone image on bright-white base (Seagull G when it was around, Emaks till I run out, Gallerie, Fomabrom, MC110, Fomabrom Variant, etc.). I have never had a problem with staining when transferring directly to the selenium toner from the second fix. As mentioned already, I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fix 1+9 and fix for 1.5-2 minutes per bath. Many have reported staining when using these products in the stronger 1+4 dilution. I suspect that the stronger dilution is more acid, which causes the staining. The weaker dilution seems to work just fine for me. Note however, that I have fixed already in fix 1 for 1.5-2 minutes and washed thoroughly, which removes all but traces of the unwanted silver compounds (since I always use fresh fix for bath one, I imagine that my prints are pretty close to archivally processed at this point, fix 2 being insurance and prep for the toning). I imagine this contributes to my never getting staining.

As for storing "half-fixed" prints... Yes, if the prints are really underfixed, they will darken upon exposure to light. However, the large majority of the fixing happens in the first bath (especially if you keep it fresh) so even after fix 1, the prints are fixed enough that light will not cause any printing out of the remaining thiosulfate complexes.

The non-image silver compounds in a print undergo a number of reactions when fixing, changing first from silver halides to insoluble silver thiosulfate compounds and then to soluble compounds that can be washed out (gross oversimplification, but that's all we need here). The first fix does the vast majority of this work if it's fresh (if not all), leaving only a few intermediate compounds to be fixed to completion so they can be washed out. That hardly exhausts the second fixer (which is why you can use it for fix 1 after its capacity has been reached). Point being: after fix 1, prints can be safely exposed to a bit of light with no ill effects as long as fix 1 wasn't completely exhausted. I've been doing this for years with no problems.

Back on topic: There are a number of workflows possible when toning. Doing everything in one session is the favorite of many. I would recommend:
Dev - Stop - Fix 1 (in whatever fixer you like) - 10-minute Rinse - Fix 2 (in a neutral-enough or alkaline fixer) - Selenium Toner - HCA - Wash, etc.

Of course, you could wash completely between fix 2 and toner and use a more acid second fix. The only downside is the extra time needed for the wash since you still have to wash again after toning.

Or, you can do as I do, and split your workflow into "printing session" and "toning session." I print for several days and collect the finished prints (they've all had fix 1 in fresh fix and a thorough wash). I then edit them down to just the "keepers" (I often make several variations - performances if you will - of the same print and live with them for a while till I've decided which I like best; the others are discarded. When I have enough for a batch (36 prints of one size), I'll do a toning session. Again, I use Rapid Fix 1+9 and transfer directly to the toner.

Replenishing and keeping selenium toner:
I have posted a lot on this, so I'll keep it short. Filter your working-solution toner before and after use with coffee filters or the like. Use it till toning times become inconveniently long and then replenish it with a few ounces of the stock (careful here, it's easy to overdo it. If you do, just dilute more). I have two gallons of toner (one "strong" and one "weak") that have been going for 10 years or more. They work just fine and my prints pass the residual silver and hypo tests every session.

AA recommended mixing selenium toner with wash aid (Hypo-Clearing Agent) to save a step. The problem here is that the wash aid exhausted well before the selenium toner, but the bath was discarded anyway. In those days, discarding a lot of expensive and dangerous selenium was common practice and good business for Kodak. It is much more economical and responsible to have a separate step for the wash aid.

Best,

Doremus
 
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spijker

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Thanks Doremus for chiming in. I've adopted your Se-toner replenish method and I find that it works well. With respect to the fixing method you describe here, are you doing the 10 min rinse to limit the buildup of thiosulphate in the print? So oversimplified, get the 4 min fix benefits with only the 2 min thiosulphate buildup? For what it's worth; Ilford states for both the Rapid and the Hypam fixer that the pH is 5.0-5.5 for both the 1+4 and the 1+9 dilutions.

Menno
 

StephenT

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What David and Doremus said. Thanks to both of you as well as other posters. Prior to following your instructions I also was experiencing staining. Now all is well!
 
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aoresteen

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David, I understand all that. My first fix is Kodak fixer, my 2nd fixer is pure hypo. The question I have is can I do the 1st fix (Kodak), rinse, then the 2nd fix (pure hypo), rinse, store, then tone & wash?
 
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aoresteen

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What the others said. If you are going to store the print before toning, you must full wash the print.

Not by Ansel's instructions. You store, then do the 2nd fix (pure hypo) then tone, hypo clear, and wash.
 

mike c

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Thanks for clarifying the need for a more neutral PH for the Selenium toner.
 
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Menno,

I don't do a ten-minute rinse anywhere in my workflow. I do have a holding tray after fix one and before washing, but this is really just for the work prints, which get discarded. When I get a print I want to keep, it's just a quick rinse to get the surface fixer removed before going into the archival washer. This is for the first wash only, however.

When I have a toning session, I start with dry prints, so they get a soak before going into the second fix. Maybe this is what you're referring to? I don't rinse at all between second fix and toner and between toner and wash-aid (I could before the wash-aid to extend its lifespan a bit, but I mix my own and don't really need to worry about the extra step).

My wash between fixers probably doesn't make much difference as far as "thiosulfate buildup" during fixation. The one-minute fixing time that Ilford gives for its archival sequence supposedly keeps fixer from soaking too far into the paper base and thus makes washing faster. However, IIRC, at 90 seconds or greater the paper base is saturated. My fixing times are always more than that and my wash times are appropriately longer (60 minutes minimum for both of the washes I do).

About the effect of dilution on pH of fixer... I'm not an expert here, but certainly, in a buffered solution the pH will remain relatively constant over a range of dilutions. How quickly the pH changes after being transferred to a toner, for example, must depend somewhat on dilution, however. I can imagine that a weaker dilution will have less effect on the overall pH of the toner. In any case, the Ilford products at pH 5.5 and at the weaker dilution have worked well for me for years, so they must be close enough to neutral as to not cause staining. Kodak fixers, both powdered F5 and their Rapid Fix have a working-solution pH in the range of 4.4 - 4.9 from the literature I can find. I guess being aware of the possibility of getting stains by transferring a print directly from a too-acid fix to the selenium toner is most important; if there is a staining problem, the fix can be changed to a neutral or alkaline one easily to quickly confirm or eliminate it as a culprit.

Best,

Doremus
 

David Allen

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Not by Ansel's instructions. You store, then do the 2nd fix (pure hypo) then tone, hypo clear, and wash.

In 'The Print' Ansel Adams uses the word 'store' to describe storing prints in a tray of plain water before the plain hypo bath and toning.

If, however, you mean you want to (dry) store your prints for a period of time you will have to fully fix (to ensure that there is no residual silver) and thoroughly wash them (to ensure that the fixer does not stain the prints whilst they are being stored).

What is important to note in the sequence that Adams describes in 'The Print' is that he is not using a two-bath fixing regime in the way that we currently understand it (two fixing baths to ensure thorough fixing). What Adams describes is fixing in Acid-Hardening fixer for 3 minutes (which represents complete fixing of the paper when the fixer is fresh). He then stores the (fully fixed) prints in water until he is ready to tone them. The following immersion in plain hypo has nothing to do with ensuring the prints are fully fixed but rather ensuring that they have a neutral PH to:
  • Ensure that there is no staining of the prints.
  • Ensure that (should there be excessive acidity) no precipitate forms in the Selenium toner (thereby rending it unusable - although I have never seen this happen but Adams refers to it in 'The Print').
Hope that clears this up.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de
 
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