$22,000 Leica??

Kodachromeguy · Jun 9, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
I've collected things, and I've overpaid for collection things in the past - but I've never overpaid so obnoxiously (by my standards.) $22,000 is absurd for a camera of today, 'blad, Leica, or any others, much less a camera that is THAT old, unless it’s the only one left and being bought for the smithsonian.

Chris, are you joshing us? Where have you been in the last three plus decades? Leica and other camera collectors have been paying prices like this for years. Your profile says you are from Houston. River Oaks, Memorial, and even West University Place are full of folks who treat this like petty cash. Just look at the cars at the Whole Foods Market. It is a new world order for us old folks.

AgX · Jun 9, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
I just read this thread from the beginning. The current bid is 20,000 Euros, not dollars. The bid increment is 2,000 Euros. OP, read more carefully. 20,000 Euros plus 20% bidder's premium plus. if sold in the EU 15% VAT on price plus bidder's premium isn't that much.

-) I do not get your point on the Dollar / Euro Issue. The current bid is 22,680$, the OP thus was quite close.

-) VAT differs between EU countries. In this case it is 20%, not 15% as you stated, for the camera. (Actually a VAT as low as 15% is not even allowed by the EU...) However in this case the base to calculate VAT on may be less than those current 20,000EUROS, depending on the fisacal approach on this very matter.
The VAT for the premuim is 20% too.

choiliefan · Jun 9, 2020

>>The Buyers Premium For All Items Exported Out Of E.C. (European Community) Is 25%. For Items Marked With *, Sold And/Or Shipped Within The E.C. The Premium Is 25% Plus 20% Vat On Hammer Price And Premium. For All Other Items (Without *) Sold And/Or Shipped Within The E.C. (European Community) The Premium Is 30% (Including Vat). <<

railwayman3 · Jun 9, 2020

A lot of collectables are, to a certain extent, all or in part an investment medium, to the extent that their value is supported by active markets, established dealers, an interesting and recorded history, and detailed catalogues being available.
An example might be the philatelic market, where there are detailed catalogues for every country, and the opportunties for new collections and research. Hence many stamps are of great monetary "value". Arguable matchbox or cheese labels could be considered as attractive as postage stamps, but, while there are collectors and dealers, there isn't the same interest and, SFAIK, not the same availability of catalogues, magazines, etc., as philately. Hence not a regular market, and, again SFAIK, they are not of the same value as equally "rare" stamps.

ChristopherCoy · Jun 9, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
Chris, are you joshing us? Where have you been in the last three plus decades? Leica and other camera collectors have been paying prices like this for years. Your profile says you are from Houston. River Oaks, Memorial, and even West University Place are full of folks who treat this like petty cash. Just look at the cars at the Whole Foods Market. It is a new world order for us old folks.

HA! All three of those places are places I wont even venture near. Too many entitled attitudes.

Wallendo · Jun 9, 2020

Value is not always a tangible rational thing.

People will pay lots of money for an Ansel Adams print. But you can also look at it as just a picture of some trees and rocks.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 9, 2020

I purchased F2 for 35 USD as the source for metal curtains for M4-2. But F2 appears to be totally working. Lenses are not very expensive and images are good. In no time I acquired 19, 20 and two 28mm F mount lenses. For price which makes sense. I have to pay almost same amount of money I paid for these four lenses just to get one 21mm LTM lens. And it was very low price.
This made me thinking what owning of Leica is mostly collecting these days...

blockend · Jun 9, 2020

You can pay half the 22k for a vanilla digital Leica camera and lens, that will be worth a fraction of its retail price in five years. At least the purchaser of this Barnack stands a reasonable chance of recovering his outlay, and possibly showing a profit when he comes to sell.

blockend · Jun 9, 2020

railwayman3 said:
A lot of collectables are, to a certain extent, all or in part an investment medium, to the extent that their value is supported by active markets, established dealers, an interesting and recorded history, and detailed catalogues being available.

Chris Shaw explains the price dynamic very well in this interview, though for photos not cameras. Shaw's photographs are "badly" printed by conventional standards, consisting of torn edges, rebate numbers and handwritten comments. Once key collectors buy a photograph, its financial value is assured and late comers and other collectors can expect to pay exponentially more for a print. FWIW I find Shaw's work interesting, though I can't afford the asking price!
https://blakeandrews.blogspot.com/2020/04/q-with-chris-shaw.html

DREW WILEY · Jun 9, 2020

Look at what people will spend on baseball cards, comic books, rare old beer cans, even unusual strands of barbed wire. People with evidently a lot of money to waste collect all kinds of things. Speaking of collecting photos, some of the most extremely priced today might be nearly worthless to the next generation, if they're not all faded out by then anyway. Any vendor or gallery that presumes to guarantee a rise in price over time, as an investment incentive, is basically crooked. I've seen $15 mass-produced posters selling for $4000 dollars apiece on that premise. As the saying goes, there's a sucker born every day. Tastes change. Same goes for rare cameras. Perhaps in another generation or two nobody will give a hoot about what their grandfather spent for this or that Leica, and it will end up in a garage sale right alongside some Lawrence Welk recordings. I collect things too, including photographs, but not because somebody talked me into it. I remember passing up a couple of splendid Julia Cameron prints for only $2000 apiece. They're probably worth $75,000 apiece today. But that was back when a good union wage paid $3.50 an hour, and I was a student just trying to eat and buy textbooks! So it's all relative. Then, somewhat later, I had the opportunity to trade prints with an especially famous photographer, but truly needed cash back then instead - so that's how it worked out. I got some bills paid instead of owning a couple prints that might be worth $50,000 apiece today. You can't take any of this with you anyway, at the end of the game.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 10, 2020

ChristopherCoy said:
Is this for real?

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/85047861_leica-iiig-black-paint-swedish-military

The red dot is worth half of that alone.

GarageBoy · Jun 10, 2020

Just because you don't think it's worth the money, doesn't mean others won't

Remember when Ferrari 250gtos were breaking the million dollar mark and everyone thought it was absurd? They're 10x that now

choiliefan · Jun 10, 2020

If that's the 250 GT Lusso, it's a beautiful car.
More svelte than a Leica IIIG.

BAC1967 · Jun 10, 2020

choiliefan said:
If that's the 250 GT Lusso, it's a beautiful car.
More svelte than a Leica IIIG.

Which is faster though?

BSP · Jun 10, 2020

Thanks to this post I can finally justify that brand new M-A to my wife......
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just kidding dear

logan2z · Jun 11, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
As the saying goes, there's a sucker born every day.

You, like P.T. Barnum, are an optimist. It's 'every minute'

MarkS · Jun 12, 2020

Tomorrow, Westlicht in Austria will be auctioning a black Leica M2 with a 35/2 Summicron. It was bought new by Walker Evans in 1962 and used by him until 1973. They expect a hammer price in the region of $40k- so we'll soon see what the provenance of a great artist will be worth to a collector.

NB23 · Jun 12, 2020

I

MarkS said:
Tomorrow, Westlicht in Austria will be auctioning a black Leica M2 with a 35/2 Summicron. It was bought new by Walker Evans in 1962 and used by him until 1973. They expect a hammer price in the region of $40k- so we'll soon see what the provenance of a great artist will be worth to a collector.

IMO, 75K minimum.

logan2z · Jun 12, 2020

If anyone is interested, the entire auction catalog is here:

https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/de/onlinekatalog

logan2z · Jun 12, 2020

NB23 said:
IMO, 75K minimum.

Will be interesting to see where it ends up. No bids yet.

NB23 · Jun 13, 2020

Not bad, not bad...

logan2z · Jun 13, 2020

BSP said:
Thanks to this post I can finally justify that brand new M-A to my wife......
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.....
.....
.....
.....
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just kidding dear

Do it, you won't be disappointed. New wives will always be available, new Leica film cameras might not be

logan2z · Jun 13, 2020

NB23 said:
Not bad, not bad...

Yeah, almost $70K (incl. buyer's premium)

KenS · Jun 22, 2020

AgX said:
The most expensive Leica is 100-times that price.

The buyer is probably one of 'those' who will place it in a 'glass case' for all his/her friends to 'Gag' at being able to spend that amount of money on an item that will probably 'sit in a glass cage' for ever more.. and never have another roll of film 'inserted / exposed. Probably and most likely for the "bragging rights' (only) of being able to spend THAT amount of money

Ken

NB23 · Jun 22, 2020

KenS said:
The buyer is probably one of 'those' who will place it in a 'glass case' for all his/her friends to 'Gag' at being able to spend that amount of money on an item that will probably 'sit in a glass cage' for ever more.. and never have another roll of film 'inserted / exposed. Probably and most likely for the "bragging rights' (only) of being able to spend THAT amount of money

Ken

How do you know?

He also might be one of “those” that give back to the comunity, to charity, maybe has a company that creates good job opportunities, maybe has a handicaped kid, or maybe doesn’t drive a car, maybe a Lesbian, maybe one of “those” philantropists that make the world a better place to live in. Maybe a serial killer. Maybe a rock star. Maybe a leica maniac that ate ramen for years in order to be able to afford an object of desire?

There’s way too much jealousy in this world.

$22,000 Leica??

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