210mm Lens for 4x10 or 5x12

keithwms · Oct 2, 2009

Concerning lenses, I am thinking (guessing?) that the Bausch & Lomb anastigmat on my poco might well cover 5x12. It seems to overcover 8x10 substantially. Look out for inexpensive decrepit pocos with tele anastigmats! Incidentally the FL of mine is ~11". It converts as well, by removing the front element... but offhand I don't know what that does to the coverage.

Maybe I can try to measure the coverage if there is interest.

Mike: I was banging my head against the wall trying to find lenses to cover 5x12 and this is precisely why I opted for 4x10... I don't have Jim Galli's stash of lenses! The next biggest reason was the cost and availability of film. Turns out I later got a huge supply of 5" roll film, but nevertheless, I think it is undeniable that there are many more options for lenses and film for 4x10. If you need movements I think you will find 5x12 very restricted indeed. And honestly with 4x10 I find that I am using way more shift than I thought I would. I mean, inches of shift.... the aspect ratio seems to make me notice perspective convergence much more strongly.... simply because lines along the long axis are never too far from the frame edges. I can show you examples of what happened when I shot the 4x10 with inadequate coverage whilst trying to tackle this problem.

Mike1234 · Oct 2, 2009

Keith... thank you for sharing your experiences.

Yes, I may find that I use more movements than I expect to. I just don't recall using that much a zillion years ago when shooting 4x5 but, as you stated, the longer format will likely increase the need for corrections. So... 4x10 continues to look more appealing for my needs.

Regarding film for 5x12: I know I can use the 5" Kodak aerial B&W pan film (Jim Galli does and I'm assuming you do) and I'm pretty sure the color neg film will work too. I believe that stuff has no orange backing which might actually make scanning easier though this would likely cause serious problems trying to print conventionally. However, since I intend to always print digitally (please forgive my blaspheny, fellow APUGers) this isn't a problem. I've posted inquiries about the aerial color neg film but no one seems to have used it for pictorial imagery.

keithwms · Oct 2, 2009

I haven't used the 5" colour neg, but it interests me greatly. Maybe I will get some and play. I have a project that really calls for maskless capture, and so far all I have is the maskless c41 'digibase' stuff which, frankly is not really only soso. And anyway they told me they couldn't supply digibase larger than 120.

Anyway yes I use the 5" aerial panatomic-x and it is very sweet. Been meaning to check it out in rodinal but haven't yet.

Mike1234 · Oct 2, 2009

Keith... Please post your results if you try the the B&W in Rodinal and/or aerial color neg film. I'm sure I'm not he only one keenly interested.

clay nz · Oct 2, 2009

I've used 5 inch aerial colour neg in my camera with no problems. The film had an orange mask the same as regular C41, I think it was Agfa but would have to check.

Keith thanks for the posting the emails here, yes I dealt with the same guy. I no longer have my email exchange with him. One thing I'd be concerned about is getting the film plane position correct for the holders. Did you send them a holder? My 5x12 was built for S&S holders which they had a set of. The 4x10 holders I have are Canham, do you know what holders your camera was set up for?

Clayton

keithwms · Oct 2, 2009

Clayton I didn't send them the holders, I just told them they were Chamonix holders. I bought those first, before the back, because I wanted to be sure that I'd like them. (They're ok, nicely made, do wish the darkslides had proper handles though) I did do a quick check with the 5x8 holders on my 5x7 back and the results seemed ok, fog notwithstanding. But honestly I naively assumed that the registry wouldn't be much of an issue because I figured I'd go straight to f/22 for purposes of optimal coverage. (That was before I had the 150 SW) Perhaps I should've been more concerned... but all's well that ends well: I got the 150 and saw no registry problems with the lens wide open.

Mike1234 · Oct 10, 2009

Resurrecting an old thread... finding a 210mm lens that covers 5x12 ENLARGED AND SHARPLY TO THE CORNERS w/ a bit of wiggle room.

Okay, now I'm getting really frustrated. It seems that there are only a handfull of 210's capable of filling my needs (okay wants). I want the option of making razer sharp 8x enlargements. The candidates are the 210 SS XL (way too pricey for me), 210 SA (way too big/heavy), 210 Computar/Kyvytar/Kowa (hard to find), 210 SS HM (still somewhat too big/heavy), and 210 Sironar-W (darned hard to find).

I bought a 210 G-Claron then learned it won't hold up to enlargements. Then I bought a 210 Apo Symmar only to discover it BARELY covers 8x10 straight on. If I stick with 5x12 these will both be available for sale.

I'm getting so pi$$ed off that I'm very nearly ready to say to heck with 5x12 and buy a 4x10 even though I really want to shoot 5x12.

ARRRGH!!

clay nz · Oct 11, 2009

Mike

there's a few others to consider. The early model Fuji 210W will do it, the hard part is figuring out all the variations of these lenses. There's about 4 versions, the one with the most cover has lettering on the outside of the barrel. I have a late model multicoated version, sharpness to the edges is great but it clips the corners slightly. I was going to modify the barrel to fix it by trimming the outer lip back a bit. I've never done it because I always crop my negs to 4x12 as I prefer the longer aspect ratio.

I've tested a 210 Graphic Kowa and it was excellent too.

I suspect there are a few more lenses worth looking at that aren't too hard on the budget.

Clayton

clay nz · Oct 11, 2009

Before someone suggests it, I have a Dagor in that focal length, series 3. Centre sharpness is good but edges are rubbish compared to modern optics when enlarged 4x

Clayton

keithwms · Oct 11, 2009

Mike, what you are discovering is precisely why I went for 4x10... well, lenses plus film availability. The other thing is that 4x10 is close enough to 5x8, 5x7 and 4x5 that there are adapters that make sense.... if you don't want to shoot pano only. Sure, I admit that I'd rather contact print a 5x12 neg than a 4x10 one, but...

Mike1234 · Oct 11, 2009

clay nz said:
Mike

there's a few others to consider. The early model Fuji 210W will do it, the hard part is figuring out all the variations of these lenses. There's about 4 versions, the one with the most cover has lettering on the outside of the barrel. I have a late model multicoated version, sharpness to the edges is great but it clips the corners slightly. I was going to modify the barrel to fix it by trimming the outer lip back a bit. I've never done it because I always crop my negs to 4x12 as I prefer the longer aspect ratio.

I've tested a 210 Graphic Kowa and it was excellent too.

I suspect there are a few more lenses worth looking at that aren't too hard on the budget.

Clayton

Clayton, thank you. I've been researching/reading and have found that the 200-ish FL is just about the most difficult to find that will cover 5x12 comfortably. I found a m- 210 Kowa with perfect glass in a late all black Copal for $595. I'm tempted to pull the trigger on that one even though it's probably overpriced. However, I don't want to buy yet another lens that I'll just have to re-sell.

keithwms said:
Mike, what you are discovering is precisely why I went for 4x10... well, lenses plus film availability. The other thing is that 4x10 is close enough to 5x8, 5x7 and 4x5 that there are adapters that make sense.... if you don't want to shoot pano only. Sure, I admit that I'd rather contact print a 5x12 neg than a 4x10 one, but...

Keith, I'm not too worried about 5x12 film availablity. Kodak has 5" aerial film in B&W, color neg, color transparency, and IR. As others are already doing I'll just cut it to length. I don't think I'll bother with multiple backs because I don't think I can carry all that around with me. When I want shorter formats I'll just crop off the ends. Yes, it's wasteful but hey, life is too short to worry about such things.

I want the "option" of making B-I-G prints even though I'll likely only make big prints. It's my way of considering future options.

keithwms · Oct 11, 2009

Well, I'd be happy to join in some purchases of 5" roll film... I already have the pan-x and wouldn't mind stocking up more, but I'd especially like some colour 5" stuff.

Mike1234 · Oct 11, 2009

If I do finally buy a 5x12 then I'll definitely be in the market for 5" aerial color neg film.

Bruce A Cahn · Oct 23, 2009

The best 210 I have used is the Super Symmar XL, which has enormous coverage.

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 23, 2009

I have a 210 Wollensak Graphic Raptar that more than covers 5x12. It is a direct fit into an Alphax shutter. It would probably fit a Copal 1 with adaptation by SK Grimes.

Mike1234 · Oct 26, 2009

Bruce, the 210 SS XL is just too pricey for me but, if I could afford one, I'd certainly have it.

TFC, thank you for the suggestion. I'll research the Wolly.

I've offered to buy Gary A.'s 210 Graphic-Kowa so I may have found my solution.

aria1117 · Oct 27, 2009

210mm Schneider Super Symmar HM will cover. It is rated to have 356mm IC, but it actually covers about 400mm. 210mm Apo Sironar W also covers but it has just about 356mm, not more. I had both but sold the Rodenstock as a result of smaller coverage. jim

aria1117 · Oct 27, 2009

210 SS XL is too head heavy, you really a sturdy camera to take that!

Doug Webb · Oct 27, 2009

Have you considered the 210 6.8 schneider angulon (not the super angulon) as a possibility? These were made over a long time period with the more modern ones being coated. They are much smaller than the super angulon. I don't know how it would hold up for huge enlargements but the coverage would be adequate. The schneider website lists this lens as having 85 degree coverage and a 382mm image circle, probably a conservative interpretation of the image circle of this lens, but within that image circle, a later version of the lens might hold up to big enlargements. I have seen 210 angulons that appeared to be in shape going for 500.00 to 750.00. I haven't used the 210 angulon but I have the 90 and 120 angulon for the 4x5 format and 4x enlargements have been no problem.

C Henry · May 15, 2015

I have the 210 fujinon w single coated and it covers with aplomb. It's my main lens for my 4x10 shen hao. I've also used a 180 schneider symmar convertible and that covers too although according to published data, it shouldn't...

Regular Rod · May 15, 2015

This is very nearly a six year old thread. The OP must have settled on something by now.

I've done this myself on a number of very old threads before I started checking the dates...

RR

Neil Poulsen · May 16, 2015

C Henry said:
I have the 210 fujinon w single coated and it covers with aplomb. It's my main lens for my 4x10 shen hao. I've also used a 180 schneider symmar convertible and that covers too although according to published data, it shouldn't...

I'm interested. How does one identify this lens from all the others? I've heard of different versions: lettering inside; lettering outside, etc.

I have the 250mm f6.7, which can easily be identified by it's somewhat smaller maximum aperture.

Steve Goldstein · May 16, 2015

Neil, the 6.7/250 has inside lettering, and the coatings are straw-colored. The version of the 210 that covers 8x10 is has the same features. It takes 58mm filters, I don't believe the later versions use such a small filter.

210mm Lens for 4x10 or 5x12

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