2 "hazy" Hasselblad 120mm CF lenses, what gives?

StepheKoontz · Apr 15, 2021

So far I'm on my second 120mm Makro lens that appears to have a metallic hazy film on the front surface of the rear element group next to the shutter. You can see it shining a light through the lens and it has a glittery silver look. The first I thought was a fluke, so returned it and bought a second one from a shop that specializes in blad repairs that claims to have CLA'd it. It's not as bad as the first, but it's not nice and clear like my used 60mm is. I'm sure it will flare like crazy if there is any light in the frame.

Is this a problem specific to the CF 120mm lens? Should I bite the bullet and pay for a CFi version or am I just unlucky and am getting sold problem lenses.

itsdoable · Apr 16, 2021

On Zeiss (and most) lenses, the interface between the front and rear group is the most likely to get haze. The front and rear groups are usually constructed as a semi-sealed unit. The space between the groups have the aperture and shutter mechanisms, which expose it to air movement, and off gassed lubricants (which are worse for lens shutters, especially mechanically timed ones, even worse when they are over-lubed - which I've seen a fair bit). The Makro has more lube than most lenses, due to the larger helicoid. The up side is that this is the easiest internal surface to clean, Hasselblad had a tool for each series of lenses which makes removing the rear group simple. Cleaning the other surfaces is more complicated.

That said, I have not seen any excess haze in my 120CF...

mshchem · Apr 16, 2021

Oh no. Now I have one more thing to worry about. All these medium format cameras are showing their age. Future opportunities for young folks to apprentice with the older folks.

StepheKoontz · Apr 16, 2021

itsdoable said:
On Zeiss (and most) lenses, the interface between the front and rear group is the most likely to get haze. The front and rear groups are usually constructed as a semi-sealed unit. The space between the groups have the aperture and shutter mechanisms, which expose it to air movement, and off gassed lubricants (which are worse for lens shutters, especially mechanically timed ones, even worse when they are over-lubed - which I've seen a fair bit). The Makro has more lube than most lenses, due to the larger helicoid. The up side is that this is the easiest internal surface to clean, Hasselblad had a tool for each series of lenses which makes removing the rear group simple. Cleaning the other surfaces is more complicated.

That said, I have not seen any excess haze in my 120CF...

Thanks for this. The seller, who also did the CLA. has agreed to take a look and see if this can be cleaned off. As nice as these optics are, I want lenses that are at least as clean as possible. The kit is a 500C/M with a Maxwell focus screen, 2 A12 backs, a 60mm CF and this 120mm CF + both hoods.

john_s · Apr 16, 2021

mshchem said:
Oh no. Now I have one more thing to worry about. All these medium format cameras are showing their age. Future opportunities for young folks to apprentice with the older folks.

At least for the Hasselblad there are still technicians around. For us Rolleiflex SL66 owners, we have lost several technicians lately. I should have had my gear CLA'ed when I could have had it done.

I have the Rolleiflex SL66 version of this 120mm lens, and since it has no shutter and no helicoid, it is quite clear.

mshchem · Apr 16, 2021

StepheKoontz said:
So far I'm on my second 120mm Makro lens that appears to have a metallic hazy film on the front surface of the rear element group next to the shutter. You can see it shining a light through the lens and it has a glittery silver look. The first I thought was a fluke, so returned it and bought a second one from a shop that specializes in blad repairs that claims to have CLA'd it. It's not as bad as the first, but it's not nice and clear like my used 60mm is. I'm sure it will flare like crazy if there is any light in the frame.

Is this a problem specific to the CF 120mm lens? Should I bite the bullet and pay for a CFi version or am I just unlucky and am getting sold problem lenses.

Stephe, I've got a CF version, it's old enough that it says West Germany, it looks OK. I suspect that if this is some sort of out gassing? of a lubricant it should be easy to clean once apart. I've been leaning towards newer and nicest condition I can afford lately. No substitute for a proper CLA, harder to find everyday.

Arthurwg · Apr 16, 2021

I do wonder if the haze you describe is apparent in your pictures, or how those lenses compare to "cleaner" ones in actual use. I'll bet it's very difficult to tell the difference.

StepheKoontz · Apr 16, 2021

Arthurwg said:
I do wonder if the haze you describe is apparent in your pictures, or how those lenses compare to "cleaner" ones in actual use. I'll bet it's very difficult to tell the difference.

Where you will see it is flare in bright light and overall loss of contrast in those conditions. I've shot with lenses like this before and after cleaning and it's VERY obvious. I'm not wasting film shooting with hazy lenses anymore. Small scratches and random dust has no effect, a haze across the surface of an element like I am seeing is noticeable.

Grim Tuesday · Apr 17, 2021

StepheKoontz said:
Where you will see it is flare in bright light and overall loss of contrast in those conditions. I've shot with lenses like this before and after cleaning and it's VERY obvious. I'm not wasting film shooting with hazy lenses anymore. Small scratches and random dust has no effect, a haze across the surface of an element like I am seeing is noticeable.

This has been my experience as well, for me with my Pentax 6x7 90mm lens. I initially thought it was just a kinda mediocre lens but after cleaning it rivals my Hasselblad planar. It wasn't even particularly obvious haze either, just visible enough that it could be seen when holding the lens up and looking through it into a sunny window. But boy did it have a big effect on image quality. Another lens I consider to be at that same quality level as the Hassy planar and clean Pentax 90mm is my Rolleiflex planar and it has no haze but is full of small scratches on the front element. It really goes to show that haze is a much much bigger deal than scratches.

For your 120mm, if you are handy yourself, you can use rubber tools (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GBG2H3...rid=1DXCAVN8N9AP4&sprefix=buchner+funnel+flas) to first remove the nameplate ring, then below it the first group in the lens. I think both of these can be done with rubber tools, no need for a lens spanner though one might be handy if it is tightly together. The most likely place for haze, as others have said is at the bottom of the first group, or at the top of the second group (the surfaces facing the shutter). You can clean it off with any lens cleaner. I managed to get some haze in my 80mm by leaving it in my car overnight below freezing, and then letting it come to room temperature in a humid house and I think some water condensed in there or something -- this is how I got it out. If the haze isn't on the two easy-to-clean surfaces, then it's a big problem because taking apart the groups is hard and may not be possible in some cases.

Finally to answer your question about 120mm CF lenses, two of them have passed through my hands and I didn't notice any particular haze. Though, also, I don't remember being particularly "wowed" by them either (hence, why I no longer have them), so maybe there was some that I didn't notice. It was a few years ago and I wasn't as good at spotting haze then.

StepheKoontz · Apr 17, 2021

Grim Tuesday said:
This has been my experience as well, for me with my Pentax 6x7 90mm lens. I initially thought it was just a kinda mediocre lens but after cleaning it rivals my Hasselblad planar. It wasn't even particularly obvious haze either, just visible enough that it could be seen when holding the lens up and looking through it into a sunny window. But boy did it have a big effect on image quality. Another lens I consider to be at that same quality level as the Hassy planar and clean Pentax 90mm is my Rolleiflex planar and it has no haze but is full of small scratches on the front element. It really goes to show that haze is a much much bigger deal than scratches.

I had a Minolta TLR that the front surface of the taking lens looked like an ice skating rink and it worked fantastic. I had another sample that all the glass was flawless but there was some haze on one of the internal surfaces, that I didn't notice till I later shined a light thru it, that was a very dull, lifeless lens until the haze was cleaned. I've learned that as long as it looks clear shining a light through it, the dust particles and scratches just aren't really a problem. I've also learned that if the haze is caused by a damaged coating, the lens will work much better with the coating removed than it will with a hazy/damaged coating.

itsdoable · Apr 17, 2021

Grim Tuesday said:
...For your 120mm, if you are handy yourself, you can use rubber tools (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GBG2H3...rid=1DXCAVN8N9AP4&sprefix=buchner+funnel+flas) to first remove the nameplate ring, then below it the first group in the lens. I think both of these can be done with rubber tools, no need for a lens spanner though one might be handy if it is tightly together....

The 120CF (and most of the CF lenses) are more easily accessed by removing the rear group to clean shutter/aperture gap lens interfaces. The rear group removes as one unit without dissembling anything. If you have the proper Hasselblad tool, it is a 5 min job, easier than changing the seal in the film back.

Haze lowers contrast, and can be quite noticeable. I have a 110F that had some haze, clearly visible when you shine a flash light through it. It was sharp, but with low contrast (which is pretty easy to adjust in post these days), - and as it was my first 110, I was not sure how much contrast it should have. The rear group was on tight (Zeiss seems to like to use thread lock) that I could not get it off with a standard lens spanner without damaging the thin metal notch on the rear group. So I lived with it for a few years. Recently I borrowed the correct tool, and the rear group came off easily, the haze cleaned off quickly and effortlessly, and the lens has noticeably more contrast.

Haze is OK, it can be cleaned off. Fungus not so much... And yes, it is worth cleaning off the haze!

Grim Tuesday · Apr 18, 2021

itsdoable said:
The 120CF (and most of the CF lenses) are more easily accessed by removing the rear group to clean shutter/aperture gap lens interfaces. The rear group removes as one unit without dissembling anything. If you have the proper Hasselblad tool, it is a 5 min job, easier than changing the seal in the film back.

Haze lowers contrast, and can be quite noticeable. I have a 110F that had some haze, clearly visible when you shine a flash light through it. It was sharp, but with low contrast (which is pretty easy to adjust in post these days), - and as it was my first 110, I was not sure how much contrast it should have. The rear group was on tight (Zeiss seems to like to use thread lock) that I could not get it off with a standard lens spanner without damaging the thin metal notch on the rear group. So I lived with it for a few years. Recently I borrowed the correct tool, and the rear group came off easily, the haze cleaned off quickly and effortlessly, and the lens has noticeably more contrast.

Haze is OK, it can be cleaned off. Fungus not so much... And yes, it is worth cleaning off the haze!

Interesting, thanks for the info! I've had good luck with rubber tools, but out of curiosity what does the proper Hasselblad tool look like?

StepheKoontz said:
I had a Minolta TLR that the front surface of the taking lens looked like an ice skating rink and it worked fantastic. I had another sample that all the glass was flawless but there was some haze on one of the internal surfaces, that I didn't notice till I later shined a light thru it, that was a very dull, lifeless lens until the haze was cleaned. I've learned that as long as it looks clear shining a light through it, the dust particles and scratches just aren't really a problem. I've also learned that if the haze is caused by a damaged coating, the lens will work much better with the coating removed than it will with a hazy/damaged coating.

The damaged coating thing is sometimes such a huge deal you can notice it when holding the lens in front of your eye and using it as a magnifier. I have a Olympus Zuiko Mamiya six lens that has this kind of haze (I tend to call it etching). How do you go about removing the rest of the coating?

StepheKoontz · Apr 19, 2021

Grim Tuesday said:
The damaged coating thing is sometimes such a huge deal you can notice it when holding the lens in front of your eye and using it as a magnifier. I have a Olympus Zuiko Mamiya six lens that has this kind of haze (I tend to call it etching). How do you go about removing the rest of the coating?

Very gently with a Qtip and some cerium oxide glass polish. Most of the older lenses have a pretty soft coating on the inner element coatings, it doesn't take much to remove them when they are damaged. The haze does a LOT more damage to the light transmission and image quality than that one surface being coated would help.

itsdoable · Apr 19, 2021

Grim Tuesday said:
Interesting, thanks for the info! I've had good luck with rubber tools, but out of curiosity what does the proper Hasselblad tool look like?

Hasselblad rear group lens tool 10-10-20-000-924 (Not mine, just borrowed)

3 of the 4 notches on a 150CF that the tool mates to...

Lens tool 10-10-25-000-924 inserted into the rear group

Rear group removed for cleaning.

It's not unlike the copal shutter tools for LF lens boards, only easier.

Kodachromeguy · Apr 19, 2021

Do the 120mm f/5.6 S-Planar lenses also suffer from the haze problem? They are a lot older, but used a different shutter.

itsdoable · Apr 19, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
Do the 120mm f/5.6 S-Planar lenses also suffer from the haze problem? They are a lot older, but used a different shutter.

All lenses can suffer from haze in that section where the glass shares space with lubed moving parts.

It probably depends on the last service - what type and how much lube was used.

tony25 · Apr 19, 2021

I just bought a 500c that come with 80mm C lens. The camera is in very good condition, but I found dust/haze in the internal lens, possibly next to aperture / shutter as mention in this thread.

Not sure if the haze we discussed here look like this? The first picture shows almost clear lens when looked straight. I am trying to decide whether I should return it:

mshchem · Apr 20, 2021

Fungus IMHO

tony25 · Apr 20, 2021

thanks

Grim Tuesday · Apr 20, 2021

Looks like it could be either fungus or haze to me. Fungus because of how thick it is, but I'd lean towards haze because it doesn't have the usual branched fungus structure.

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2021

I would return it. It is your hard earned money and you should not accept something that is not right.

haruharu · May 29, 2021

StepheKoontz said:
Thanks for this. The seller, who also did the CLA. has agreed to take a look and see if this can be cleaned off. As nice as these optics are, I want lenses that are at least as clean as possible. The kit is a 500C/M with a Maxwell focus screen, 2 A12 backs, a 60mm CF and this 120mm CF + both hoods.

Hey i messaged maxwell for a screen. Did you find it was worth the switch from acute matte?

StepheKoontz · May 30, 2021

haruharu said:
Hey i messaged maxwell for a screen. Did you find it was worth the switch from acute matte?

The difference between the stock screen that comes in a 500CM and a Maxwell is HUGE. Probably a couple of stops brighter. There is probably less difference between an acute matte-D and a Maxwell but the Maxwell screen is brighter and easier to focus.

haruharu · May 30, 2021

StepheKoontz said:
The difference between the stock screen that comes in a 500CM and a Maxwell is HUGE. Probably a couple of stops brighter. There is probably less difference between an acute matte-D and a Maxwell but the Maxwell screen is brighter and easier to focus.

Thats a shame. Ive been waiting for a reply for 2 weeks and still no bite. May just have to shoot for an acute matte

StepheKoontz · May 30, 2021

Yeah, it's difficult to get a hold of them. Do they list a phone number? I did a group buy of these probably 15 years ago to get a better price. He sold me I believe it was 20 "seconds" that had very minor flaws for a great price. I got several 6X6 and rollei sizes, and sold them to friends. I recall they never replied to my emails, I had to talk to him on the phone. He was an old guy then, God only knows if he is still even doing this.

If you do want a hasselblad brand upgrade screen, make sure you buy the newest -D screen.

2 "hazy" Hasselblad 120mm CF lenses, what gives?

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