2 excellent Printing Out Paper formulas

first one is very close to what is in Denise Ross's book
A) gelatin 24g
Ammonium Chloride .8g
Dh2o 200ml
B) Tartaric Acid .8g
NaBicarbonate .4g
Potash Alum .5g
Dh2o 30ml
C). Silver Nitrate 10g
Citric Acid 2.25g
Dh2o 50ml
bloom gelatin in the water for 25 minutes; bring to 110 degrees and add Ammonium Chloride
Combine all the B group in the water; heat and add at 110 degrees to A
I like to keep the citric acid and silver nitrate separate until last....dissolve each separately in 25ml of Dh20 and combine before adding to A+B
heat C to 110 degrees and slowly add to the A/B combo. after adding you will see a milky white precipitate form. when finished stir for another 10 minutes while holding the temperature. After 10 minutes add finals: 20ml Alcohol;5ml of 2.5% chrome alum; 20 drops photo-flo; 5ml glyoxol

Formula by Abney
A) Gelatin 27g
Dh2o 200ml
B) NaCl 6.75g
Citric Acid 4.25g
Potassium Citrate 7.75g
Dh2o 50ml
C) Silver Nitrate 25.5g
bloom gelatin the Dh2o for 25 minutes. bring to 120 degrees and add B group at the same temperature
Lights out! slowly add the C group at same temperature. Continue to stir afterward for 10 minutes while holding temp.
Add finals: .3g Chrome Alum dissolved in 50ml Dh2o; Alcohol 25ml; Photo-flo 25-30 drops; 10ml Glyoxol

I have made and used both of these formulas for quite awhile and they give great results. the second one will coat lots of paper!
If you are storing the emulsion then add some thymol with the finals.
Mostly have fun!!!

Thanks for sharing. Any tips for coating?

Two (serious) questions many will be asking here -

One, what is POP?? I know, or I think I do - but I'm over 70, and going by personal experience, almost everyone else who is younger than, let's say 50 or even 60, doesn't. So a definition/explanation will help.

Two, as a long-time photographer who recalls using this when it was just going into its heyday in many portrait/wedding studios and prolabs of my era, where can one get POP nowadays?? Coating it at home doesn't really seem to be the way to go...

The entire process as outlined in #1, seems rather a big investment in $$$ for basics and then a lot of work for - what exactly??

ozmoose said:

where can one get POP nowadays?

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You have to make your own.

ozmoose said:

Two (serious) questions many will be asking here -

One, what is POP?? I know, or I think I do - but I'm over 70, and going by personal experience, almost everyone else who is younger than, let's say 50 or even 60, doesn't. So a definition/explanation will help.

Two, as a long-time photographer who recalls using this when it was just going into its heyday in many portrait/wedding studios and prolabs of my era, where can one get POP nowadays?? Coating it at home doesn't really seem to be the way to go...

The entire process as outlined in #1, seems rather a big investment in $$$ for basics and then a lot of work for - what exactly??

Click to expand...

It's really all up to you as far as you want to go.
First let's address cost. My favorite paper foma 131vc is almost $200/box. The biggest cost for making my own paper is the silver nitrate. I can easily coat about 30 sheets of 8x10 with one run.
Secondly it's not available anywhere. Any boxes on ebay or elsewhere will be useless by now.
Check out the work of Linda Conner..she used this paper exclusively in her career and the prints are stunning.
So lots of work for exactly what? Well I appreciate being in control of my own materials and I'm only in the dark to make negatives. For me it's a very organic process as I enjoy being out in the sun to make photos and do the printing

RogerHyam said:

Thanks for sharing. Any tips for coating?

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Roger I use a coating rod. Made by RD SPECIALTIES. it's a rod with wire wrapped around it for an even coating. Some people coat wet..I coat dry on either fixed out baryta paper or watercolor paper. Fabriano Artistico is excellent as are folio and arnheim 1618.
I keep the rod in a tray with hot water from the sink and wipe it dry before I lay down the emulsion using a syringe with about 10ml for a 8x10 piece of paper. I tape the paper down to a piece of glass the same size on an oversized piece of glass which has been completely leveled. That's important so you get an even coating. As soon as it sets up I remove it from the glass and hang up on a line to dry. This is important because any residue caught underneath will stick and it's impossible to separate from the glass. The emulsion will set up rather quick..usually in about 15 minutes or less. Baryta paper will dry faster than watercolor.
Any other questions please feel free to ask as I've been doing this for about 3 years now

Just what I’m looking for!!! Thanks for your hard work Peter, and again for sharing. Well done!!

Many thanks, Peter. You have given me several new topics to keep me amused and myself by looking up online now, and who knows, I may even give the process a try.

I and others I'm sure, will greatly appreciate what you have written.

ozmoose said:

Many thanks, Peter. You have given me several new topics to keep me amused and myself by looking up online now, and who knows, I may even give the process a try.

I and others I'm sure, will greatly appreciate what you have written.

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Thank you for the kind words. I highly recommend the handmade silver gelatin emulsion print Denise Ross..published by Routledge. It goes into much more depth with pictures and lots of tips. I do what I do because I have limited darkroom space for coating.
There are others formulas for making regular darkroom paper also in the book kodabromide etc
Making emulsion is not hard.. if you can follow a recipe you can make emulsion. The hardest part is coating. DENISE recommends using a glass coating rod with tape wrapped around it to create an even surface above the paper
You don't need fancy equipment either. A nice hot plate is definitely a help but you could make a double boiler with some Pyrex on the stove
My motto is keeping it simple .try to write down what you've done so if you goof up then retrace your steps.

Here are 2 4x5 prints made on fixed out baryta paper. Toned gold
You can still go to the Chicago Alubumen works website and down load the instructions for toning the paper..its very straightforward
Mostly have fun!!

Albumenworks.com
2 downloads available
They used to be the supplier for the kentmere paper before Ilford closed it out

Peter Schrager said:

Roger I use a coating rod. Made by RD SPECIALTIES. it's a rod with wire wrapped around it for an even coating. Some people coat wet..I coat dry on either fixed out baryta paper or watercolor paper. Fabriano Artistico is excellent as are folio and arnheim 1618.
I keep the rod in a tray with hot water from the sink and wipe it dry before I lay down the emulsion using a syringe with about 10ml for a 8x10 piece of paper. I tape the paper down to a piece of glass the same size on an oversized piece of glass which has been completely leveled. That's important so you get an even coating. As soon as it sets up I remove it from the glass and hang up on a line to dry. This is important because any residue caught underneath will stick and it's impossible to separate from the glass. The emulsion will set up rather quick..usually in about 15 minutes or less. Baryta paper will dry faster than watercolor.
Any other questions please feel free to ask as I've been doing this for about 3 years now

Click to expand...

Thanks. This is really useful. I make my own silver gelatine plates and this sound very similar. I'm a plastic spoon user though.

ozmoose said:

Two (serious) questions many will be asking here -

One, what is POP?? I know, or I think I do - but I'm over 70, and going by personal experience, almost everyone else who is younger than, let's say 50 or even 60, doesn't. So a definition/explanation will help.

Two, as a long-time photographer who recalls using this when it was just going into its heyday in many portrait/wedding studios and prolabs of my era, where can one get POP nowadays?? Coating it at home doesn't really seem to be the way to go...

The entire process as outlined in #1, seems rather a big investment in $$$ for basics and then a lot of work for - what exactly??

Click to expand...

Your points are like going on a vintage car forum and saying "What's the point doing up these old bangers? Seems very expensive when you could buy a new one instead."

Nearly all cultural activity is pointless if you over think it but it is also the only thing that makes life worth living.

I don't know if this has been recently shared, but here is some info on P.O.P.
http://thelightfarm.com//cgi-bin/newcarousel/htmlclanslidegen.py?chapter=Intro

I suspended making P.O.P. last year during a bad drought locally with wells and reservoirs going dry. That's not a problem right now, but I've gotten sidetracked on another project (Squirrel!). An aside: During the winter of 2020-21, I produced a ton of P.O.P. for a research project at the National Gallery (D.C., USA). They seemed to be satisfied with it, so I think the simple recipe in TLF is sound. And really, the recipe itself is among one of the easiest alt process printing techniques to make. Mastering it for art's sake may be a different matter.

(and thumbs up for Roger Hyam's statement)

Denise and everyone else just wanting to keep the discourse going
always interested in what others are doing and how I can learn from them.
The recipes in your book are fine; I started out with recipe #1above not even realizing how similar it was to yours!! Mastering any ART is the real challenge.

You do a fantastic job of keeping the P.O.P. ball in the air. Lovely prints, too!

It would be good to see more people try it and then freely bounce around questions, answers, and results. That's when the real progress happens. Fingers crossed.

I've taken Peter's collodion chloride POP workshop (Dec. 2022) with good results which has spurred my interest in POP. I can also attest to the high quality of Peter's prints. I've been working with Adox Baryta paper so far and just beginning to branch out and try watercolor papers as Peter suggests; also getting supplies (chemistry, glass supports, Mayer rod, etc.) together to try rod coating and non-collodion based POP emulsion recipe's (collodion used in the collodion chloride emulsion is also fairly expensive but coats fairly easily so it's a good introduction to POP).

I'm curious, however, as to why more people don't seem to use the dry coating method Peter describes above? Downsides? Which is similar to Radoslaw Brzozowski's account of the Mayer rod coating technique on page 264 of Denise's silver gelatin emulsion book, except that Radoslaw's method still uses wet paper.

Also, Denise's description of dry coating seems a bit more complicated (pp. 66-71).

Thanks

Peter Schrager said:

Roger I use a coating rod. Made by RD SPECIALTIES. it's a rod with wire wrapped around it for an even coating.

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I see the rod diameter choices each come in a selection of numerous wire size#’s. Which wire size # to select and why?

I have to check my notes and see the rod # for you
Carl also has the info
As far as wet versus dry I've done both and do prefer the dry. I seem to get more variables with wet coating. I'm also experimenting with cobalt chloride and or calcium dichromate for added contrast boost
I know for sure that if you double coat you will get outstanding contrast. Still looking for the magic ingredient to boost contrast in one coat. the only reference I found so far is to the 2 compounds above
with no info on % or otherwise....I do carry on!!

What is Dh2o ????

joho said:

What is Dh2o ????

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distilled water!!

Answering the rod question
RDS Specialties Part #LAB-35T
3/8 inch #35 formed
this is what the owner recommended to me and it works just fine

rod info
Part #3-35T
3/8 inches #35 formed
RDS Specialties

I have the RDS rod Peter mentioned and it's been waiting patiently on the shelf. Looks like a very well made piece of equipment. It's been a little quiet on my side but planning to mix up the emulsion soon and will be in touch. I'm very curious to try dry coating as per your recommendation of it being 'simpler' than wet coating. I have everything I need to mix up the emulsion and coat but worried about controlling the temperature of everything from mixing to coating stage but the only thing to do is stop worrying and try it. I plan to do a dry run with gelatin and food coloring first which hopefully will help a bit.

In the meantime have been working on some salt prints, but really not satisfied with the contrast (my negatives probably not developed long enough although sometimes I get lucky). Same (or similar) negatives did much better with collodion chloride POP (you mentioned POP in general was much more forgiving in terms of negative density/contrast).

I'm going to try another run at making some Kallitype's and longer negative development times for salt first before getting back to POP but I'm definitely looking forward to it.

Carl